Sandbagging in the APA

vader93490 said:
Ultimately, it became very stupid & very annoying to me having to play lop-sided races giving up as many as four games going to six or seven (whatever the race was to). I came to the opinion that if a player played at their true speed & won a high portion of matches, they were penalized harshly for it with having to give up potentially enormous spots as they advanced in rank.

In my experience, the lower handicapped player is usually an underdog, even getting the games on the wire. There are exceptions, like perhaps a strong 4 vs. a weak 7 or a strong 3 vs. a weak 6 (5-2 races), but those are the exceptions. In fact if the games on the wire evened out the races then they wouldn't need the 23 rule (except to keep the league growing).

My main problem with the APA, which I really enjoy overall, is the 23 rule. I'm having a harder time keeping my core group of friends together and still fielding competitive rosters. Make it 24, I say.

Cory
 
Cory in DC said:
My main problem with the APA, which I really enjoy overall, is the 23 rule. I'm having a harder time keeping my core group of friends together and still fielding competitive rosters. Make it 24, I say.

Well, the following suggestion won't help if/when it comes to playoffs/Vegas etc... but occasionally, teams in our league, when one is stuck as far as the players present that night, will agree to both play to 24 (or one team will simply allow the other team to play 24 if they wish). Generally the folks in my league are pretty friendly, and also our LO allows it if both teams agree.

You might consider checking with your LO to get his/her policy on such things as far as normal session matches. *shrug*
 
StormHotRod300 said:
While i cant stand the Handicap system in the APA, its the only pool league within 30miles of my area.


Now there are ways to keep peoples handicaps low and not have them sandbag, its what i call making someone a 3 or 4, and thats by having them play people who are alot better than them.

So while this people maybe a SL3 or 4 they probably play like a 5 or 6, but because they have only played SL6's or 7's and lose pretty badly their handicap stays low.


Is this sandbagging? no, its just using the system.
[snip]
dave
I'd say someone who is playing as a 3 or 4 against 6's and 7's and yet is losing consistently probably doesn't "play like a 5 or a 6."

In general, I think people believe there's a lot more sandbagging in the APA than there actually is (the above is just one example). This happens for several reasons.

First, people use it as an excuse after they lose, as in this scenario:
ME: Man, you had a tough night. Time to get some more practice in.
PLAYER: I missed that shot on purpose.
ME: Yeah, right. You're 2-6 this season, you've never had a break and run in your life, you always shoot all your ducks in first and then wonder why you always end up hooked, and you're worried about going up to a 5?

Second, people forget that pool is streaky. A 2 or 3 will occassionally run out of their opponent's break. A 4 can break and run one in every couple hundred racks. This doesn't mean they are sandbagging. People remember other players' hot streaks, but forget their cold streaks, leading to an over-estimate of the amount of sandbagging.

Third, people over-rate themselves. So they'll say the other guy was sandbagging instead of "maybe I'm not a very good 5."

Sandbagging does happen, of course. In my experience, the egregious cases (like 6 and 7 speeds playing as a 3 or 4) get caught and disqualified.

Cory
 
APA rules

These rules of having players receive what I call "considerations" is BS.WTF?:eek: You play the game of pool to win and have a good time.If you aren't winning and not having a good time,why do it.The only way for the APA to better their own name and standing with shooters is to do away with the current format.Make the players become better shooters to advance.That is the only way to keep up.I have had to lose my share of games to better opponents but that in turn makes me a better player.That way you have the best shooter and best teams competing with no chance of sandbagging.
 
TheBook said:
I don't know how one game or a few balls will affect the players ratings because I just joined a BCA league. I was playing in the last game of the last round. The other player ran 4 balls and then "missed". I ran out the table and won the game. He told me in a "nice" way after the game that his team only needed 4 points to win the round. They already had most points locked up. So what I gather is he missed to let me shoot and run up my average and to help keep his average down.

Maybe I don't understand the BCA league then. We play the league to qualify for the regional tourneys. I don't think anything that happened during league affected which tourney you could play at regionals. Whether it was 8ball (OpenB, Open A, Masters) or 9ball (Open, Masters). I could have just signed up for Masters my first time down there had I wanted to. I averaged a 9.5 last year during league play but I still played in the Open tourney and was not forced to go up to Masters based on my stats.

So I don't see where your clown was losing on purpose cause all he was losing out on was his $0.13/or-so per point scored. I wouldn't do him any good to dump. Maybe I am wrong...wouldn't be the first time. :D :confused:
 
The best way to beat a rating system is simple. Always focus on improving your skills, play, strategy, and defense with emphasis on playing to the best of your ability. Why? Because every rating system relies on one consistent factor, past performance. So, if you're always improving, then your actual ability will always be better than your rating.

Sandbagging happens for one reason and one reason only. People who are trying to cheat. Cheaters are in every system.

Unlike many other systems, the APA has many very effective measures for handling cheating. The APA system has many tools for most accurately reflecting one's current ability. Thus, cheating is greatly minimized. Whereas other systems, may have a larger gap between past performance and actual current ability. And there are other systems, that won't change your rating once you enter the tournament, no matter how much over you rating you're currently playing. In essence, this allows the sandbaggers to not only cheat, but to get away with it without any consequences. With some systems the problem is that they're all subjective. This increases the human error factor and/or allows for favoritism, which occurs quite readily.

The only system that eliminates cheating is a more pro-like system where ALL players compete on an exactly equal basis. No rating system, no handicapping, no grouping of people into categories. The problem with the pro-like system is that only a handful of people (and I mean a handful) in a city or tournament will be able to win or even compete. As a result, the other people will quickly quit competing or will never enter the tournament to begin with. This doesn't foster growth and development in the pool community.

Therefore, we have numerous other leagues and systems available to choose from, which cater to the desires of all players below pro-level. All systems have pluses and minuses, the issue is how we deal with them. Some people handle these issues in a positive adult manner, while others handle them in a negative destructive manner. Examples of positive adult manners have already been mentioned: Always playing to the best of your own ability, and fostering an environment where others around you do as well or to score properly and/or utilize the existing management tools (i.e. filling out the proper complaint forms when necessary, with a focus on being as constructive as possible). In other words, it's a matter of one's personal honor and integrity, no matter what anyone else does. While some others will always focus on being negative and destructive and engage in constant bickering. Not only do they try to tear down a specific group, but they wind up being destructive to the whole pool community. No wonder why so many outsiders view the pool community with such a negative impression. One of the biggest reasons for the gap between pool and golf.

Lessons learned have taught me to be willing to engage in a constructive and friendly dialogue, whereby both sides listen and understand the opposing point of view. And to ignore those who just want to engage in constant, juvenile, petty bickering amongst those who'd rather hear their own repetive negative ranting over and over again.

It's nice that we all have choices available of which systems we participate in. Despite any negatives, they all have some positives, for which many people choose to participate in. The pool community will be much stronger when we reduce the petty bickering, and allow people to choose what they see as best for themselves. Increasing the number of pool players as a whole, will create many positive options for the organization of pool. A few with petty attitudes trying to dictate the choices of others, will never reap positive results and growth amongst the pool community.

It's all simply a matter of acting with honor and integrity and good sportsmanship even in the moments when we may not want to.
 
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