Sandbagging in the APA

cajunbarboxplyr said:
I have been shootin this game for goin on 3 years......no not long at all.

Ive started with league............


The same "local Pro folk" thas been playin before me and still after still hold the low rank........

Now not all the local hotshots are doing this.....we actually have a 9 in our league........But there are a certain 7-8 of them that should be 7's......that are 3's-4's.........How they beat the system I have no clue.....



As much as I hate APA I play only cause my best friends have a team and needed a extra player so I joined for there company.

Call me a hypocryte lol
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Well, the only way that could happen, is with the blessing of the league operator. Like I said, there are bad L.O.'s in all different leagues, not just APA. I know for a fact, that the L.O. in Metairie (not sure if it's the same L.O. now) was busted years ago, for sending low SL players to nationals, who were not adjusted. The team got busted in Vegas, at nationals, after winning the tournament, and lost everything, including prize $$$ and being banned from the APA for two years. The L.O. also was fined, as well. There may have been some other kind of reprimand for him, but I'm not sure. I'm not saying I don't believe you. All I'm saying, is that it can only happen with the knowledge and support of the league operator. You could bust him, and turn him in to St. Louis if you cared about changing things in your area...but that's your call.

Scott Lee
 
Forgive me here but this is turning into a bunch of B.S.

All we have are a bunch of people complaining about the largest pool league in the world. No it's not perfect in the handicapping , but if folks would do their part in making sure the system works then it wouldn't be an issue.

If you go to Nationals underrated you'll be found out, they also give every team the opportunity to certify the teams handicaps, still people don't do the right thing and end up disqualified.

Some of you are quoteing things and they don't add up, 9 ball handicaps go up to a 9, 8 ball up to a 7. Yes, BCA is call pocket, but if your playing 9 ball it doesn't matter.

Rather, than beat the league down, do something to build it up. Starting with being the best player that you can be. If your handicap gets to high and you get off the team the next session, it's ok just start your own team and follow the rules. Eventually, the cheaters won't be able to stay together anyway.

I've been in the same league for 5 years, we know most of the players on all of the teams in our division. We know the players not the handicap and we play accordingly. We're in first place right now and pulling away, and everybody is handicapped properly.

Black Cat :mad:
 
BlackCat and Scott Lee are right on the money

I captained an APA team the last two sessions and I couldn't agree more with every aspect of what these two have said. It is obvious that these two have a tremendous enthusiasm for the game and enjoy it immensly, and Scott, who I met and received a lesson from, is a contributor to this forum whose opinions I respect tremendously.

I have to admit, the trip to Vegas is a great recruiting tool, unfortunately sometimes too good. Even in my limited experience, I suspect many of the problems that I have heard of have come from team captains and players getting way too obsessed with the free trip to Vegas. I just don't get it.

Let's look at the costs of playing league session.

Eight players x $20 annual dues - $160

Five players x $6 each night x 14 weeks - $420

Thats $580 already! Only one session! Doesn't include equipment costs, cocktails, food, mileage. Let's be very conservative and add $10 each player each night for only five players. $10 x 5 players x 14 weeks = $700

Subtotal one session team cost - $1280!

Times two sessions $2560! And in some of the pool hall divisions, (like ours) the fee is $11! That would be a total of $3260!

That's just the start! Look at the collective time spent.

Let's just say, conservatively again, that each team has six players at the match for three hours. That's 6 players x 3 hours x 14 weeks = 252 hours per session. Two sessions - 504 hours! Doesn't even include the playoffs, practice outside of league, time commuting to and from league matches, or lost productivity (hangover) from being up late during a week night.

504 hours is the equivilent of 63 eight hour work days. Eight players on a team for a year each spend the time equal to nearly eight working days a year playing on an APA team for two sessions! Let's just pick an hourly wage, maybe $8 an hour that we could have earned with that time instead.

504 hours x $8 per hour = $4032 for two sessions.


Add $4032 in time to $2560 in money you get $6592!

And all this for what?

Only a SUPER SMALL CHANCE to go to Vegas.

Seems obvious to me if you REALLY wanted to go out to Vegas with your friends, there are far cheaper and easier ways!


I'm making this point on the amount of time and money teams need to spend playing in the APA to help put in context what is really going on. Even under the most diabolical sandbagging schemes, actually getting to Vegas playing in the APA is still extremely unlikely. The captains and players that advocate sandbagging are scamming their teamates and ONLY trying to get THEMSELVES a trip to Vegas. They are chasing a ghost with your time and money.

In my opinion, the APA is primarily a well organized social league who's structure is best suited for beginners (2's, 3's, and 4's) to not only see better players (5's, 6's, and 7's) play, but have a chance at playing them, learning some things, and solidifying their interest in the game. It also gives the better players a chance to strut their stuff in front of an audience. It's also a great way to get both women and men together playing pool. With the right group of people on your team, it can be a blast. But like anything else, it only takes one obsessive idiot to screw up a good thing.




Da Poet
 
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I play on an APA league. I have complaints about it. First off I can't stand the No Push rule. And I feel if you want to change sticks for a shot the same way a golfer would then go for it.

I don't mind the no-call in 8ball. It helps move some of the games along.

I also think APA has done more for pool than any other organization out there. Sure it is slanted to help the lesser players. But these lesser players can turn into great players where they might have quit if they just kept getting their butt handed to them everytime they played.

The real problem with the APA system is the human factor. I can't stand sandbagging teams. It hurts them since they don't go for the win all the time. And it hurts other players because they don't get to learn new stuff from better players. However nothing is funnier than when you play a sandbagging team. Then they think they have you played. Then your hit a hot streak and it's all they can do to catch up. Suddenly you see a 4 turn into a 6 or 7. Then when you still beat them it is pretty cool.
 
While i cant stand the Handicap system in the APA, its the only pool league within 30miles of my area.


Now there are ways to keep peoples handicaps low and not have them sandbag, its what i call making someone a 3 or 4, and thats by having them play people who are alot better than them.

So while this people maybe a SL3 or 4 they probably play like a 5 or 6, but because they have only played SL6's or 7's and lose pretty badly their handicap stays low.

Is this sandbagging? no, its just using the system.

I am doing the same thing with a new girl this session, expecially after she comes in as a 3, and whips a SL6 lol. I told her i was going to make her a SL4, which would be just fine.

If i could do it all over again, i would have only played the Best players in the league so i could keep my handicap as low as possible.

The one thing i wish the APA would do to is count how many balls are left on the table after each game.

Like if player A is a SL4 and breaks and makes all thier balls but 1, and then Player B who is a SL5 runs out the table, and zero innings are counted for the game, it hurts the SL5, because all that is shown is that the SL5 won the game in Zero innings. It doesnt show that the SL4 broke and made all but 1 of his balls + the 8ball.

dave
 
Man, all this ruckus about sandbagging.

Each L.O. is advised by National to create a H.A.C. (Handicap Advisory Committee), which is members of the Board of Governers, and should be consisted of some of the best players in the league. They are occasionally asked to sit down and review rosters and move players who skill levels do not match their true abillity. This is to help combat the ongoing sandbagging.

Captains, Division Reps, and League Directors, Managers, and Owners all know that sandbagging is a problem. However, one clear way to help combat it is to "Mark EVERY shot that was deliberatly missed". If all deliberate misses were marked, there would be no sandbagging.

If you EVER hear a captain telling his player to get his innings up, or to miss a few times, Report this Immediately to the League Operator / Owner. You have to step up each and everytime you see this, and when you do, the cheaters will be taken care of through suspension and/or APA pulling your player card.

Just my thoughts. If everyone did what they were supposed to, play their best, and watched the match closely, see what are missed on purpose, and marked accordingly, we wouldn't have a problem.
 
StormHotRod300 said:
The one thing i wish the APA would do to is count how many balls are left on the table after each game.

Like if player A is a SL4 and breaks and makes all thier balls but 1, and then Player B who is a SL5 runs out the table, and zero innings are counted for the game, it hurts the SL5, because all that is shown is that the SL5 won the game in Zero innings. It doesnt show that the SL4 broke and made all but 1 of his balls + the 8ball.

dave
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Interestingly simple and constructive idea. I don't immediately see a large downside to this except an extra bit of work for the league operator. Maybe a better topic for a new thread?
 
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juanbond said:
This is the one thing I really dislike about the APA, at least the leagues in my neck of the woods. I joined my first team last fall, and quickly learned that to be a good "team" player, I should strive to keep my skill rating as low as possible, so as to have better chances to win matches when they really count (deciding matches, city tourney, etc). So naturally, this meant keeping my innings high, and losing to better players.

I found this atmosphere to be terribly frustrating and against the spirit of competition. I play league to compete. I pride myself on being a terrific team player in any sort of environment, but if it means artificially keeping my APA skill rating low, count me out. I understand that this helps the team possibly get to Vegas or whatever...but I really don't care about that if it means I have to sacrifice my integrity and honesty.

An elder woman friend of mine who also shoots in this league, while having a similar conversation, told me "there's two types of players in the APA; team players, and ego players. You either keep your skill rating low and help your team, or you get it as high as you can and stroke your ego." Personally, my ego has very little to do with my interest in league play. I'm not trying to impress myself or anyone else. I just love this game of pocket billiards, and I love to compete. I could care less if I am a five or six or seven. I just want to be rated what I should be. I want to play my best in every match.

Anyhow, I also play BCA and enjoy that far more than the APA. I deserted the APA after one session, although I would consider joining another team if I liked the captain's and teammates' attitudes regarding this subject.

Is anyone with me? Is sandbagging common in your local APA leagues? How do you feel about it? What can the APA do to remedy this?

[/rant]
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If sandbagging is rampant in your APA league, it is the fault of the people in your league, not the fault of the APA. If people scored properly, the sandbagging wouldn't float.

Any league is only as good as the people in it. If you think your league is bad, look around you. The people who are sandbagging, or allowing sandbagging, are the reason that your league is bad.

Although I would never say that sandbagging doesn't exist in my APA league, I can honestly say that it is not the norm.

I have been playing in my league for a number of years. I started as an SL-4 and I have slowly progressed to, what would be considered, a strong SL-6. I have had the same captain for all of these years and I have never been asked to dump a match or extend the number of innings. My captain knows that I will always go out and play my best and he has never asked me to do anything different.

If you don't like the APA system, place the blame where it belongs, on the people in your league.
 
Da Poet,
Let's look at some other math.
Me - $20 per year
$6 for the nights I play (about 10 per session)
3 sessions per year.
My total cost is $200 per year. I play 30 nights a year
That's a whopping $6.66 for a night of pool, competition, and fun.
I have been in rooms that charge more than that for one hour of table time.
Seems like a pretty good bargin to me.

As for sandbaggine, yes it happens. I am aware of it. But I guarantee it doesn't happen on my team. I have called my league operator about a player on my team that was sandbagging. He was ranked a 5, and his sandbagging was obvious. As the captain, I filed a complaint against him (my own team member!) and had him raised permanently to a 7. I have also asked them to raise me when I believed they had me under-ranked.
Every player on my team know I expect them to try to win, and win by the biggest margin they can, every time they play a match. I don't worry about handicaps for my players. If the league moves you up beyone your skill level, it usually comes back down where it should be very quickly. Play by the rules, use the scorekeeping the way it is intended, and it isn't an issue. And quite honestly, if some captain wants to cheat just to win a trip to Vegas, more power to them! If and when my team goes, we will all know we earned it.
Steve
 
pooltchr said:
Da Poet,
Let's look at some other math.
Me - $20 per year
$6 for the nights I play (about 10 per session)
3 sessions per year.
My total cost is $200 per year. I play 30 nights a year
That's a whopping $6.66 for a night of pool, competition, and fun.
I have been in rooms that charge more than that for one hour of table time.
Seems like a pretty good bargin to me.

As for sandbaggine, yes it happens. I am aware of it. But I guarantee it doesn't happen on my team. I have called my league operator about a player on my team that was sandbagging. He was ranked a 5, and his sandbagging was obvious. As the captain, I filed a complaint against him (my own team member!) and had him raised permanently to a 7. I have also asked them to raise me when I believed they had me under-ranked.
Every player on my team know I expect them to try to win, and win by the biggest margin they can, every time they play a match. I don't worry about handicaps for my players. If the league moves you up beyone your skill level, it usually comes back down where it should be very quickly. Play by the rules, use the scorekeeping the way it is intended, and it isn't an issue. And quite honestly, if some captain wants to cheat just to win a trip to Vegas, more power to them! If and when my team goes, we will all know we earned it.
Steve
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I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. I am as much anti sandbagging as anyone. I am sorry if that message wasn't as clear as it could be. Sandbagging teams aren't the norm where I am from either.

My point was to be taken in context with not having fun because you are deliberately playing less than your best pool for the sole purpose of getting a "free" trip to Vegas. Playing less than your best, or asking others to do so is extremely selfish and more than a total waste of time. It's not the system or the league, it's individuals within certain teams that do this. I was trying to demonstrate in terms of time and money what a team spends and what selfish a--h---s these individuals really are when they take the fun out of it for others.


By the way, your $6.66 is not for the evening it's for a single match that shouldn't last more than forty five minutes anyway. Usually the $6 divisions don't have free practice tables. You do not have to wait for up to three hours to play your match at a pool hall either. The $10 each player figure I quoted figured in a usually higher than average food and drink prices. I usually spend about $30 and sometimes up to $50 or so if I'm not playing (Including tip). I thought I was being very conservative with $10. Actually, how much people spend each night at pool league, besides the fee, might be a good start for a new thread!
 
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You guys can defend the integrity of the APA all you want, but the way the league is set up, it basically forces players to sandbag. I think that a fair estimate would be that at the very least, 85% of all the teams try to keep their skill levels low. Not all the players, but at least one on each team. The reason why is because you cannot play a session and have the numbers go over 23. That's why you can't have a team full of high SL players.

If you have one or two high SL players, you have to have a couple of very low SL players. So what happens when those low SL players start to improve and get better? Their ratings will go up.

Logically, they need to keep their numbers low or else they have to leave the team and be replaced by new players. Nobody wants that to happen.

Say all you want, but the system is crap. The APA does not promote improvement in ability. It promotes manipulation of numbers. The better you play, the more you get penalized. People join the league to have fun, but eventually it turns into an obnoxious system where the best team has the best players that play a few numbers better than they are rated.
 
thebighurt said:
Lets see, they advertise over 1,000,000 members at $ 20.00 just to sign up for the year= $ 20,000,000 + 1,000,000 x $ 6.00 per week x about 45 weeks = $ 270,000,000 and they pay the first place team in the nationals $ 25,000.... nice... i wonder where the money is going...hmm
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No, your figures are spoken like a league operator.
The average weekly fee is $ 6.00 not $ 5.00, the lowest is $ 5.00 and alot of places also have $ 7.00 so the average is $ 6.00 so you are wrong there. All over South Florida and most other place there are 15 week sessions which equal 45 so you are wrong there again!! Teams have been trying in South Florida for over 15 years and no teams have ever finished in the top 16 out there. A team from here won the National Tap Championship in only the 2nd year down here. The are over 200 APA teams down here and 4 teams go to Nationals. There are 50 Tap teams and 4 go to Nationals you do the math genius. TAP also never charges for the tables at any of their Naional events unlike APA. While reading your post I started laughing my ass off when you said you used to be a league operator for APA now I know the reson for your post. The APA skill limit is 23 " oh sorry guys your players got raised and you can't field the 23 limit I guess you will have to split your teams and make 2 teams" more money for APA.. what a joke! TAP has a skill limit of 25. TAP is a way better league than APA it is not even close. The score sheets in the APA are a joke. It does not show at all how the losing player played. It doesn't show how many balls the losing player made or nothing. The reason it is 4 times larger than other leagues is because it has been around the longest robbing people blind. With the amount of people playing in their league they should be paying the first place winning team at least $ 100,000. Although if they did that than the local league operators like yourself might have to give up some of the money they have been carving up for so many years.
 
Rich R. said:
If sandbagging is rampant in your APA league, it is the fault of the people in your league, not the fault of the APA. If people scored properly, the sandbagging wouldn't float.

Any league is only as good as the people in it. If you think your league is bad, look around you. The people who are sandbagging, or allowing sandbagging, are the reason that your league is bad.

Although I would never say that sandbagging doesn't exist in my APA league, I can honestly say that it is not the norm.

I have been playing in my league for a number of years. I started as an SL-4 and I have slowly progressed to, what would be considered, a strong SL-6. I have had the same captain for all of these years and I have never been asked to dump a match or extend the number of innings. My captain knows that I will always go out and play my best and he has never asked me to do anything different.

If you don't like the APA system, place the blame where it belongs, on the people in your league.
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Rich - I never once blamed the APA for causing this sandbagging... I merely pointed out how common it is in my league, stated my position against it, and asked for others thoughts on this sort of situation.
 
Da Poet said:
My point was to be taken in context with not having fun because you are deliberately playing less than your best pool for the sole purpose of getting a "free" trip to Vegas. Playing less than your best, or asking others to do so is extremely selfish and more than a total waste of time. It's not the system or the league, it's individuals within certain teams that do this. I was trying to demonstrate in terms of time and money what a team spends and what selfish a--h---s these individuals really are when they take the fun out of it for others.
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My thoughts, exactly.
 
I think one of the biggest Reasons people in the APA began sandbagging, is when you goto Vegas, you notice a couple of things.

A- This isnt your old Pool hall where your the big fish.

B- There are people with a SL 3 or 4 and 5's who run racks!!!

C- Playing what you thought was a good saftey is just like giving up BIH !


Last Summer when i was playing in the 9ball league, i was talking to a friend of mine while we was shooting our match and he said something about how he wanted to goto Vegas and Show his stuff. And he was a SL 4.

And i turned to him and was like you have no idea what your getting into when you goto Vegas, you will run into people who are a SL 3,4 and 5 who run RACKS.

Of course he said, 3's and 4's dont run racks. Well several people on my team had been to Vegas a couple times and responded with, " Well they do in Vegas!!!!!! "

Now the reason you get alot of people from Bigger cities who seemed to have stacked teams who sandbag, is because when you have huge divisions with 30-50 teams, you end up with guys who are 4's and 5's who if they was in any other area, would probably be your 6's and 7's.

Its just that the depth of the talent pool is so much tougher that you end up with people who have a lower handicap level then if they played in another area.

I know that me being a SL6 in APA 8ball, if i went to Chicago, or Florida, or places with these huge league divisions i would at best probably be a SL 4 or 5.

dave
 
juanbond said:
Rich - I never once blamed the APA for causing this sandbagging... I merely pointed out how common it is in my league, stated my position against it, and asked for others thoughts on this sort of situation.
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Juanbond, I was merely pointing out the source of the problem, because so many blame the APA system, when the problem is really the people in their local league.
My thoughts on the situation are simple. Play your best. If your team doesn't like it, join another team. There is no good reason to sandbag.
 
Well, Well, Well have we made any advancement on the subject yet,there are some like myself who like the league dispite the problems that are around, and those who just hate it no matter what and just stay stuck on the issue.

I don't how things are done in other league areas but here in maryland here's how we do it.

1. Once per session each team captain has the ability to hand in a skill level reveiw sheet on any player that they think needs to have their handicap raised or lowered. This is collective from the entire divisiion at the same time.

2. Also, at anytime that anyone feels that their is someone rated lower than what they should be, they also have the option to call the league office and request that the player be looked at under a special review.

3. We also have a B.O.G. that meets on occasion to raise handicaps as well.

In addition to these things each team has the ability to do the same things each week to control the S.B. problem by simply marking any missed shot that they feel was intentionally missed as a defensive shot. It's not that hard to determine, you just have to watch the games and learn the players.

Winnig a free trip to Vegas is the last thing on my mind. Our team competeing on the highest level, being the best and winning is what's on my mind.

The team in my division thats been winning it all has won 7 out of the last 8 sessions. They have advanced to the regionals, but alway's finished one match away from the national qualifier. They have a well rounded team with people who are strong in the handicaps. When matches are on the line an have some importance they quit drinking and start playing.

I hope some of this information helps those of you who only see the down side. Take this information back to your own leagues, and make some changes. Untill something Bigger or Better comes along this is what we have.

Black Cat :cool:
 
I don't know how one game or a few balls will affect the players ratings because I just joined a BCA league. I was playing in the last game of the last round. The other player ran 4 balls and then "missed". I ran out the table and won the game. He told me in a "nice" way after the game that his team only needed 4 points to win the round. They already had most points locked up. So what I gather is he missed to let me shoot and run up my average and to help keep his average down.

I am thinking the next time I am in this situation I may intentionally knock in the 8 to give him his full 10 points.

There is always sandbagging and loop holes that people will take advantage of.
 
txspaderz said:
Man, all this ruckus about sandbagging.

Each L.O. is advised by National to create a H.A.C. (Handicap Advisory Committee), which is members of the Board of Governers, and should be consisted of some of the best players in the league. They are occasionally asked to sit down and review rosters and move players who skill levels do not match their true abillity. This is to help combat the ongoing sandbagging.

Captains, Division Reps, and League Directors, Managers, and Owners all know that sandbagging is a problem. However, one clear way to help combat it is to "Mark EVERY shot that was deliberatly missed". If all deliberate misses were marked, there would be no sandbagging.

If you EVER hear a captain telling his player to get his innings up, or to miss a few times, Report this Immediately to the League Operator / Owner. You have to step up each and everytime you see this, and when you do, the cheaters will be taken care of through suspension and/or APA pulling your player card.

QUOTE]

I decided to make waves about sandbagging and improper scorekeeping last session,,,,,,answer was (from league operator) : quit if you don't like the way things are going.... why fight the system, when the L.O. is only concerned about $ coming to him !!!!!!! JMHO
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If a) everyone marked the scoresheets properly, and b) they added ball count to the scoring somehow, sandbagging wouldn't be as big a problem in the APA.

But you'll never get rid of the human factor - the folks (both players and LOs) who will manipulate the system in any way they can get away with.

The problem with handicapping systems is that the more complex they are, the easier they are to monkey with.

Obviously the APA is quite aware of the weaknesses in their handicapping system - else they wouldn't have folks in Vegas ready to knock people's handicaps up on the spot.
 
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