Maybe my post was confusing: the CAD drawing (the second image) shows a subrail thickness of 1.25" and a nose height of 0.915" (I don't think the nose height is dimensioned in the drawing, though.)
Scale Billiards Tables
- Thread starter jviss
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Maybe my post was confusing: the CAD drawing (the second image) shows a subrail thickness of 1.25" and a nose height of 0.915" (I don't think the nose height is dimensioned in the drawing, though.)
Thanks for your reply. It is a rather interesting project, isn't it. I am planning un building it myself, and wasn't planning this as a commercial enterprise.Since i'm supposed to be out in the shop working on another project, naturally thinking about pool tables is more interesting.
Have you settled out on a projected playing area and total table outside dimensions? Seems like it would be an interesting project. Are you going to build it yourself?
Materials and slate, other than maybe cloth and rubber, should be relatively reasonable (moderate expense) because small pieces of natural materials are generally less costly per volume unit than large pieces of the same quality. Pockets and pocket liners could possibly be contrived of available commodity items (plastic pipe and modified fittings, e.g.) or even 3D printed. My local library has a "maker space" that will allow a person to download files and laser cut wood patterns, or 3D print actual usable parts in at least 2 plastic formulations. (Cost is subsidized, and based by pound of material consumed). They also have a 3D scanner, though i don't know what the size limits are. (point being, if you don't have other resources in this area, check your local library, they are becoming common in upstate, NY, at least)
Have you calculated if 3/4" slate would be thick enough? Assume single piece top?
Overall, though, the price to have one built would probably exceed the cost of a really nice (used) GC or Diamond if it's all farmed out. Even in batches of say 20 or 50, they would not be cheap, but someone could create a market. Even eventually a tournament series, aka miniature golf.
While it does not appeal to me personally to own one in lieu of a full size table, I love the idea of building one. Fascinating concept whether dead end or not. I refrained from commenting because of RKC's known propensity to jump on ideas that didn't originate with him or his own interests. He seems to have either settled down, or someone stole his screen id. ("The kinder gentler artist formerly known as RKC")
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I value RKC's input, he's a known expert on this stuff. I assume going forward things will be positive.
I have a friend who's a leather-work hobbyist, I may enlist him to make pockets. (He's currently designing and making an envelope-style cue case for me. I made him some tooling for his arbor press, snap dies and so forth, so he "owes me.") I'm thinking 1" slate, or maybe even a countertop material, like the resin and stone "quartz" material, one piece. (My daughter's an architect and kitchen and bath designer and said she could get me a good price on a custom-made piece.)
I love your library's maker space - wow! I wish we had that here!
Thanks for your reply. Clearly, the cushions are the most challenging aspect of this, which is why I think you zeroed in on them. I'm still turning ideas over on my head. I'm thinking of making some test instruments, like a Stimpmeter for measuring table speed that can also be used to measure cushion rebound; and then make some prototype rails for testing.
The problem you're going to run into is the nose height with K66 cushions. For this type of application they won't work, which is why I suggested the northern.step cushions with a flat nose, then there's no issue with the nose height, being adjusted higher or lower.
Thanks, yes, I'm going to try to get a sample of the northern step cushion.
I'll give you a call after the weekend. In what time zone are you, and what's a good time?
Pacific time, Washington state. Anytime is ok
Reason i asked, didn't know if weight is a factor for your project, as well as size. If the table is about the size of a single (out of 3) 9' slate, but supported similar to a 9' table with cross and even center lengthways piece, 3/4" might be stiff enough. Of course if weight is not a factor, thicker is better.
I know from buying it, that there is little if any difference in price between 3/4" & 1" thickness, because the quarry starts with blanks assuming 1" finish for most purposes. If you want less, it actually takes them another operation to reduce it. In the 80's i used to make tooling; and table and bar parts and mouldings, for a local table builder and went to the quarry with him for sets. Since that time, it seems i still buy some slate every few years for architectural purposes. I emailed them a few months ago to ask if they still made table sets, but did not get a reply. OTOH, they never were very communicative except by quotes from a FAXed sketch, or sometimes by phone if you could get them to pick up.
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you don't have to buy it from a quarry. keep searching craigslist for a free or super-cheap table. i'm using the slate from two pool tables as a patio. when people are moving a pool table because a 1000lb albatross and they give them away. also on craigslist, i see slate countertop pieces being given away all the time.
My post intended to allude to that:
But the OP does not seem to have settled on a size, yet.
If the design can be gotten out of re-cutting an existing slate, or maybe a single piece barbox slate, that would be ideal and save shipping and crating costs. There may even be some home-style tables with 3/4" slate out there, if it is single piece/large enough pieces
OTOH, it is not always a good idea to base a new design strictly on the availability of reject materials. With scaling, even an inch or so might change the optimal playing or "experience" characteristics. It seems that currently the limiting factor is deciding cushion and ball size. When that part is solved, it will predict or at least strongly influence the table size parameter.
Slate just isn't that expensive, though crating and shipping can add up.
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Good points! What do you think of using other countertop materials, like quartz or granite? My daughter is in the kitchen and bath design business, and said she could get me a good price on a piece of counter top material cut to my specifications. I was thinking the unpolished quartz would be good. In the meantime I can make some speed measurements on my own quartz countertop, by stretching some cloth over it and making a Stimpmeter-like device (ramp).
I did! Nothing near me now.
I have an extra set of 3/4" slate collecting dust. I'll gladly donate it to the project if you can pick it up. I'm out in the middle of nowhere though...aka West Texas. It's a set of 44" X 88" with one piece not a serial number match (approx .020 thinner than the other 2)
That's very kind, thank you! I'm currently unemployed, but even so, I'm not sure my wife would understand a road trip to West Texas for slate; though, it could be the adventure of a lifetime!
I'm not a table mechanic.
I have occasionally worked with & fabricated countertop materials including slate, soapstone, marble, gabro, and granite.
The material questions for a pool table are 1.) is it stiff enough to avoid bending in the size you end up using with the designed support system; & 2.) is it flat.
I like the unpolished spec - no local induced depressions. If you have a means to satisfy yourself on this point (straight edge, surface plate, *Starrett 199 level ) it sounds like a viable option.
My impression has been that granite is predominantly quartz? Granite is used for surface plates although it is not as stiff as other materials used for same purpose (Gabro, e.g.; or ribbed cast iron); because the quartz in granite gives it excellent wear resistance. Probably irrelevant for a cloth covered pool table. Granite seems to me to be more fragile than slate; OTOH countertops are often thicker than 1"; which would add stiffness and strength to the system. Cut-outs in granite (pockets) sound a lot less fun than cutting them in slate. (No doubt your daughter's fab shop can do it in any material, though)
Short answer: Your idea sounds viable. You might change other parameters after building a prototype, so working with what is cheap and conveniently available for the first iteration has a lot of merit. Do inspect to see if it is "flat enough". Then use your engineer's eyeball to SWAG how much support it needs.
*199 is way too sensitive to use for setting up a table, it will change as you walk around it. However, for inspecting or extending flatness, this is a very useful tool.
Keep us posted!
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Thanks. The quartz I referred to is a man-made composite, some kind of resin with quartz mixed in. This, and most other countertop materials are super-flat.
I plan on a scaled-down version of a full-size tables slate frame, maybe something like the Gold Crown slate frame. I'm open to input on this, and any other aspect.
I have a machinist's level. It's not a Starrett, but it's a good one, a Fowler, 12", 0.0005"/10" sensitivity. In my view it's way overkill for leveling a pool table, for the reasons you cite. I will probably use my pretty-good 24" carpenter's level most of the time, and then curiosity will get to me and I'll check with the Fowler. For flatness I'll test with a good straightedge. (Meaning, a good straightedge, a Starrett or Folwer or the like. I have a lab grade surface plate that I check the straightedge against.)
What Ball Size?
So, another sub-thread: what size balls should I use?
I initially thought 1.5" as those are the ones on my toy table, and they are easily available. Then I became aware of the existence of 1.75, 2, and 2.125". (U.S. Standard are 2.25".)
I ordered both 1.75 and 2 off eBay, and should have them soon. Good to get them and see, in person, how you think it will work out.
One eBay I got the impression that 2" are in common use in Australia; is that so?
So, another sub-thread: what size balls should I use?
I initially thought 1.5" as those are the ones on my toy table, and they are easily available. Then I became aware of the existence of 1.75, 2, and 2.125". (U.S. Standard are 2.25".)
I ordered both 1.75 and 2 off eBay, and should have them soon. Good to get them and see, in person, how you think it will work out.
One eBay I got the impression that 2" are in common use in Australia; is that so?
You might be surprised how some man-made "stones" with plastic resin as the bonding matrix warp or sag over time. Especially with heat and sunlight. An advantage you have it yours will (presumably) not be exposed much to sunlight. Plastic composition would not be my first choice. However, again, this is all a fair experiment.
FWIW, an engineered epoxy/granite mix may have a chance; Hardinge for one used to use it for their cnc lathe beds. There are some reliable filled urethanes that almost don't move, for patternmaking, but i don't know if urethanes are used for stone. Polyester, OTOH is going to warp, just a question of when.
I don't think Starrett ever made true straight edges. They make some of those knife edge steel things, but not a true straight edge. Brown & Sharpe made a range, used to have an 8 footer here, but i aged out of being able to lift & manage it effectively by myself & sold it. (approx. 165 lbs IIRC) I still have some 4 footers for re-scraping machine ways, and at least one of the 30" units i used to make and sell years ago.
That pissy qualification of terms aside :grin: You are on the right track and the tools you mention will probably be fine for the app.
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