Schuler Cue Out of Business??
- Thread starter Rich93
- Start date
Is it me or what?
Schuler will lose their mystique once their cues get made in China, imo.
Kinda like Smith and Wesson getting made in Portugal.
Schuler will lose their mystique once their cues get made in China, imo.
Kinda like Smith and Wesson getting made in Portugal.
China knockoffs
China knockoffs are killing companies who spend large R&D funds and then have there products copied and produced by a country
whose standard of living and wages are below the rest of the world!
Industrial nations cannot compete against a people who 's wages went up 300% .20 cents per hour to .60 cents per hour last year.
Simonis of Belgium comes to mind!!
China knockoffs are killing companies who spend large R&D funds and then have there products copied and produced by a country
whose standard of living and wages are below the rest of the world!
Industrial nations cannot compete against a people who 's wages went up 300% .20 cents per hour to .60 cents per hour last year.
Simonis of Belgium comes to mind!!
manwon said:
Craig......
What's that address, again?
JB Cases said:
Not to create a stir, but they really need to update your history books. These things happened EONS ago! Most or all of us were born way after those times, so even though we read about them, we can't really even relate to them. That stuff was so long ago!!!!!!
Grumpy said:
Actually he is dead right. Almost every mid to high end American cuemaker makes the majority of their money selling their cues overseas. A cue that they can get 1k for here, is selling for about 3 times that much overseas. Plus, there simply is no real market here for super high end cues. I have personally heard 2 of our top cuemakers(who shall remain nameless for obvious reasons) say that they make at least 75% of their total revenue from the far east. One went on to say that he was an idiot for selling ANY cues here.
True to Japan, Singapore and Taiwan.muttley76 said:
To China? I realllly doubt it.
Let's start off this response with a preface that I am a Chinese American. I'm proud to be American and I'm proud to be Chinese, and I'm currently a major detractor of both governments (although that is set to change tomorrow).
That being said, the stigma that junk is made in China is downright laughable, because EVERYTHING is made in China these days.
"Blame" Americans for buying Toyotas and Hondas? How are you going to go and blame people - AMERICANS especially considering what our nation is based upon - for buying the best product at the best price? Excuse us - yes US, since "treacherous" Americans of all different skin colors buy Japanese cars - for wanting a reliable, efficient and affordable product.
It's so easy to blame other entities - government, other nations - for what is ultimately OUR mistakes. What does the subprime mortgage crisis really have to do with the government and financial companies? Didn't we Americans ultimately expose ourselves to economic peril by spending more than we had? In the most indebted and obese nation in the world, blaming others for our own economic failure is like suing McDonalds for having fattening food.
Blaming another nation - especially a nation of people that have historically been rendered as more different than any other - for our nation's failures is not only ridiculous - it's dangerous.
You guys can laugh at J. Barton all you want, but I highly suspect that his own life's path into the intersection of our increasingly globalized world had led him to what is CLEARLY a deeper level of thought when it comes to these sensitive topics.
What does American slave labor have to do with this argument? Try everything. Slave labor was used to undercut established European producers of similar products in order to carve a niche and eventually become dominant in sales.
Swap cues and cases with cotton and tobacco; American-European economic situations with Sino-American economic situations; slave labor with outsourcing and what is really all that different?
Default on our loans to foreign countries? Even if that was plausible (it's not) or sane (it's not), it's just more of what got this great nation of ours into trouble in the first place. Let's blame others, screw others over for our own benefit, find the fast, painless solution, low-carb diet, south beach diet, pay with my credit card, refinance, bill me later. More of the same.
I'm sorry that this thread got hijacked, and usually I keep the non-pool stuff to myself on this forum, but you guys really stepped on my toes and into my territory on this one. My passions are my studies, and while that means a lot of things, it also refers to my majors in Economics, Political Science and Asian American studies. I simply can't lay off of a thread with such unfounded and ridiculous statements like the ones I've read here - and on MLK day no less!
To anyone who would like to discredit my credibility as a mere undergraduate, I welcome that suggestion - I wouldn't be seeking a PhD if I thought I was already an expert in my field.
And at any rate, at least when I make an argument, I cite my sources:
http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/4/1/3/7/pages241370/p241370-1.php
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1121505
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Chin
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/business/12charts.html
Which is a hell of a lot more substantiation than most of you armchair economists and social scientists have ever offered in your posts.
P.S: When you get the chance, when and if you read, pick up a copy of Thomas Friedman's "The World is Flat" if you really want a true expert's insight and research.
That being said, the stigma that junk is made in China is downright laughable, because EVERYTHING is made in China these days.
"Blame" Americans for buying Toyotas and Hondas? How are you going to go and blame people - AMERICANS especially considering what our nation is based upon - for buying the best product at the best price? Excuse us - yes US, since "treacherous" Americans of all different skin colors buy Japanese cars - for wanting a reliable, efficient and affordable product.
It's so easy to blame other entities - government, other nations - for what is ultimately OUR mistakes. What does the subprime mortgage crisis really have to do with the government and financial companies? Didn't we Americans ultimately expose ourselves to economic peril by spending more than we had? In the most indebted and obese nation in the world, blaming others for our own economic failure is like suing McDonalds for having fattening food.
Blaming another nation - especially a nation of people that have historically been rendered as more different than any other - for our nation's failures is not only ridiculous - it's dangerous.
You guys can laugh at J. Barton all you want, but I highly suspect that his own life's path into the intersection of our increasingly globalized world had led him to what is CLEARLY a deeper level of thought when it comes to these sensitive topics.
What does American slave labor have to do with this argument? Try everything. Slave labor was used to undercut established European producers of similar products in order to carve a niche and eventually become dominant in sales.
Swap cues and cases with cotton and tobacco; American-European economic situations with Sino-American economic situations; slave labor with outsourcing and what is really all that different?
Default on our loans to foreign countries? Even if that was plausible (it's not) or sane (it's not), it's just more of what got this great nation of ours into trouble in the first place. Let's blame others, screw others over for our own benefit, find the fast, painless solution, low-carb diet, south beach diet, pay with my credit card, refinance, bill me later. More of the same.
I'm sorry that this thread got hijacked, and usually I keep the non-pool stuff to myself on this forum, but you guys really stepped on my toes and into my territory on this one. My passions are my studies, and while that means a lot of things, it also refers to my majors in Economics, Political Science and Asian American studies. I simply can't lay off of a thread with such unfounded and ridiculous statements like the ones I've read here - and on MLK day no less!
To anyone who would like to discredit my credibility as a mere undergraduate, I welcome that suggestion - I wouldn't be seeking a PhD if I thought I was already an expert in my field.
And at any rate, at least when I make an argument, I cite my sources:
http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/4/1/3/7/pages241370/p241370-1.php
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1121505
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Chin
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/business/12charts.html
Which is a hell of a lot more substantiation than most of you armchair economists and social scientists have ever offered in your posts.
P.S: When you get the chance, when and if you read, pick up a copy of Thomas Friedman's "The World is Flat" if you really want a true expert's insight and research.
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SupaFoo said:
I understand your passion and that of others on this subject. However, as the OP, I'd just as soon let this thread die unless anyone has any more info on Schuler. So far only JE54 knew anything, and that was that the shop is closed but the owner says the business will continue. And that's all we know for now.
JoeyInCali said:
That's what I thought until I started seeing Chinese (not Taiwanese) players here with SouthWests, Tads, Omens, Ginas, etc....
There are a LOT of people in China with money enough to buy just about any cue they want.
China's middle class is as large as America's entire population.
Because of the one child policy and the Chinese penchant for savings there are a lot of young adults who are the recipients of their parent's hard work in the form of property, business, ability to attend college abroad, travel and basically a sheltered and good standard of living.
Many of them end up with very good jobs and with low expenses they have a decent amount of disposable income.
Many Chinese want to be like the Taiwanese when it comes to fashion and consumption. So the best Taiwanese players play with SouthWests and Gina cues and that prompts the Chinese to seek out custom cues as well.
I get asked at least 2-3 times a month if I can get new SouthWest cues.
The other day a friend of a friend asked me to help him get a Bender.
The Chinese would buy every Iphone in existence if they could.
The majority of Chinese are still poor but the number of Chinese that would be considered well off by American standards is plenty enough to buy most of the custom cues that America can produce if they chose too.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that Chinese people have no money or desire to own fine things.
In fact, you can go to any decent Jade or wood sculpture store here and see carved pieces on sale for more than $100,000. You can find pieces in burl that would make any cue maker drool.
Even at the outdoor flea market-type stalls selling porcelain you can find pieces selling for 3-10 thousand dollars.
Jay can attest to the high end malls full of expensive designer goods.
The Chinese like to show off wealth much more than the average American does.
So yeah, right now there probably isn't a lot of orders coming from Chinese customers but it isn't from lack of demand or lack of money, it's mostly due to inexperience with high end cues and cuemakers and inability to communicate. (or I should say perceived inability to communicate as many of the Chinese I know speak English quite well but they don't trust themselves to initiate contact because they believe that their English is poor.)
JesPiddlin said:
So you don't think there is anything to learn from history? Should we erase the Holocaust and World WarII from the history books because they happened so long ago?
I guess the oppression and torture of blacks in the South should be erased as well, who needs that boring old history now that we are so enlightened?
We should probably erase all the references to the great scientific discoveries as well, after all a lot of them happened so long ago.
And just how do you UPDATE a history book anyway by erasing chronicles of events? I would think that updating a history book would be to fill it with more accurate accounts of what happened in order to have a deeper understanding of the social aspects behind the events and the climate of the time.
fish on said:
Please cite just ONE example of a company that had a "large R&D" budget that was killed by copies of their product?
Companies which have large R&D departments generally also have large legal departments devoted to protecting their intellectual property.
And your last statement doesn't makes sense, you are saying that a western nation where wages are higher can't compete with a nation where wages are lower despite the fact that the lower wage nation faces cost increases like the 300% increase in wages (not sure where that number comes from)???
You're right, they can't. On an apples to apples basis if the same widget is made in two places and the quality is the same then the place with lower cost to produce and subsequently lower cost to get the goods to market should be the consumer's choice. This is why producers look to go where their cost of production is lower. Because business is not charity.
When someone stakes out a plot of land and builds a factory they are not doing it to be charitable to the people around who need work. They are doing it to make as money as they possibly can for as long as they possibly can in that location. When that location becomes unprofitable they move on.
Wouldn't each and every one of us do the same in our personal lives.
If you eat at a restaurant with horrible food and bad service do you continue to go there just because the people who work there need a job?
If you do have a job and you get a better offer don't you go there to increase your own personal profitability? Or do you stay loyal to the place you are at because they gave you a job in the first place?
Each person is their own productivity unit with the ability to take their labor and trade it for money and move that labor to another customer at any time. (excepting slave/indentured servitude type setups). So why do you feel that it's ok to deny the business owner the same choice that you possess as an individual? Why do people feel that they are somehow owed a job?
I feel a great amount of responsibility to my employees and my employer. However if the business climate changes in such a way that it's not feasible to continue in business then I would have to close down. If the choice were to close or go somewhere else to produce then I would go somewhere else if I wanted to remain in business.
Simonis produces goods in China. Seems like they are doing just fine producing the high end cloth in Belgium and the rest of their goods in China, leveraging their brand's goodwill and doing what they need to do to stay in business.
This is a ball, we all live on it, we all benefit from the innovation and labor of others in some way. No civilized man and no civil nation is an island that can exist completely isolated from the world.
JB Cases said:
Where the heck did you get the idea I said that? That was out of left field, for sure. The post I responded to acted like we should REMEMBER being sweat shops and slavery and stuff. It's kinda hard to remember what you weren't alive for. It also sounded a little like a put-down for what we WERE. I was trying to state that that stuff is NOT the norm, now, so OBVIOUSLY things have changed. We must have done something right.
As far as getting your feathers all ruffled up, it might make you happy to know that when I was about 3 or 4 years old, we had a cross burned in our front lawn. I was alive and well when some of the very blatant racial crap was going on. I was just a toddler when I was a victim of it.
Oh yeah. Before you go on again about how I don't think there is anything to be learned from history... I am a genealogist and a teacher. History is a big part of my life BY CHOICE.
Sheeeeeesh!!!!!
JesPiddlin said:
Of course we should "remember" our history. Just because we didn't personally live it gives us no right to live completely in the present when that means we should allow history to repeat itself.
I find it incredibly depressing when a history teacher tells me I can't use history as an example when speaking of current affairs.
My statements were not a put down for what we were but instead a reminder that no so long ago we weren't that great and that we longed for something better. As a nation we gratefully accepted help from other nations to liberate ourselves, as a nation we have passed laws to protect minorities and to protect workers. As a nation we have been grateful to be able to export our goods to other nations and used that influx of capital to improve our lives. Which is why I cannot stand the attitude that we somehow have the right or the duty to deny other countries the same opportunities.
Your statement that I should disregard history because people can't relate to something that happened before they were born is ludicrous.
It was wrong of the United States government to abuse it's power to oppress people by allowing slavery, by allowing segregation, by condoning the massacre of indians, and it would be an abuse of it's power to undertake isolationist policies in order to attempt to oppress other nations not to mention the hardship it would cause to it's own citizens.
Anyway, I have had enough and have a lot more on my plate right now.
As Adam says, I know cases, so I am going to retreat into my little world of cases and tend to my personal economy.
I wish the people who are tending to Schuler cues well with whatever they end up doing. Maybe someday I will make a Schuler case that won't cause Ray to roll over in his grave.
JB Cases said:
Put down the bag. You've already smoked too much. You are responding to weird stuff people never said. :shocked2:
:yikes: :shocked2: