Scratch shots, you know them?

CaptainJR

CaptainJR

Shiver me timbers.
Silver Member
I made a nice long rail bank last night and then the cue ball went off the end rail and scratched in the side. At a angle that I wouldn't want to have to make the shot straight in for to much money. Not really a big surprise but disappointing. I was thinking 'it could scratch' but was hoping it didn't. There are several of these shots we are aware of.. Not necessarily a bank shot. Could be a cut shot. Say a cut shot across the corner, the cue ball comes off the end rail and goes into the side pocket like it has eyes at an angle that I wouldn't bet $20 that I could shoot the cue ball straight into the side pocket.

What I'm wondering is if there is some king of mathematical reason behind this. The table being two 4.5' squares. If you make the ball and the cue come off natural, its going into the side pocket. I don't know. Just wondering. Yes if you can put something on the cue ball to keep it from doing this but if it is a tough shot and your just trying to synch it.

Any mathematical geniuses around here?
 
CaptainJR said:
What I'm wondering is if there is some king of mathematical reason behind this. The table being two 4.5' squares. If you make the ball and the cue come off natural, its going into the side pocket. I don't know. Just wondering. Yes if you can put something on the cue ball to keep it from doing this but if it is a tough shot and your just trying to synch it.

Any mathematical geniuses around here?
Click to expand...

I was at 6-6 (hill-hill) in a recent tourney with my opponent on the 9-ball. It was on the spot and the cue ball was near the side rail such that a straight line between the cue ball and 9-ball was parallel to the top and bottom rails. My opponent missed, and then I made it to win the match. After the game he asked me what I would have done to avoid the scratch problem. Apparently he played it with a lot of right english. I explained that the natural angle (stun shot) would send the 9 in the corner, cue ball in the side (and demonstrated it) but if you roll it, the natural roll takes it off the tangent line. Basically he just needed to roll it in (easy shot).

There is no real 'scratch shot'. Just picture the tangent line to work out where to hit the cue ball to avoid it.
 
i'm kinda scratching my head as to what you're asking..........

i'm sure you already know that the tangent line extends past the first rail that the cue ball hits and continues on basically as far as you can make the cue ball travel. there are plenty of things you can do, such as force follows, and hard draws to create a new line. just remember, angle in, equals angle out for the most part, then you have to allow for the natural english on the cue ball after it contacts a rail at a certain angle, or any english you put on the cue ball purposely.

basically, just follow the tangent line..........if it leads you to a pocket eventually, then either take speed off, add some on, or add some spin.

there are certain shots that come up that are obvious scratches, most know these, then there are some that come up that are not so obvious(like the one that you explain) these are the ones that require a little bit more forward thinking.

thanks

VAP
 
As hobokenapa said, you can change the path of the cueball with only adjusting the speed of the shot. Slower shot will bend the cueball more assuming it's rolling instead of sliding at the moment of contact.

Also, for CaptainJR: top players always take into consideration that particular possibility of scratch in the side and play the shot in a way that the scratch shouldn't be possible. Only time when it's not really possible or sensible to add spin is when you have a very tough long thin cut shot and fine-controlling the cueball isn't anymore about spin, it's about the exact cut on the object ball.

I've seen scratches in the side from impossible angles, cueball coming from the left diamond of the short rail and scratching in the same left side pocket. Tables have the side pockets cut differently, that's why on some tables you can scratch in the side from a very shallow angle if the speed and direction is right.

But no top player wants to get near the side pocket, not even from a shallow angle !
 
Well, your question has been answered, but allow me to add something here. I believe that many of the scratches you describe are caused by the unnecessary use of english. Remember that the use of of english can cause the cue ball to curve on its way to the object ball, making the exact point of contact with the object ball slightly harder to judge. The ball may go in, but you've made it harder to judge the tangent line.

The moral of the story is that you shouldn't use english unless you need to.
 
vapoolplayer said:
i'm kinda scratching my head as to what you're asking..........

i'm sure you already know that the tangent line extends past the first rail that the cue ball hits and continues on basically as far as you can make the cue ball travel. there are plenty of things you can do, such as force follows, and hard draws to create a new line. just remember, angle in, equals angle out for the most part, then you have to allow for the natural english on the cue ball after it contacts a rail at a certain angle, or any english you put on the cue ball purposely.

basically, just follow the tangent line..........if it leads you to a pocket eventually, then either take speed off, add some on, or add some spin.

there are certain shots that come up that are obvious scratches, most know these, then there are some that come up that are not so obvious(like the one that you explain) these are the ones that require a little bit more forward thinking.

thanks

VAP
Click to expand...

The cueball will only stay on (or very nearly on) the tangent line (90 degrees perpendicular to the line of centers) if it is sliding when it makes contact with the object ball. If it is rolling when it hits the object ball, it will stay on the tangent line for a distance, then the influence of the forward roll will cause it to diverge in the direction of the roll. The final angle of travel will be approximately 30 degrees from the original direction of travel. How far the cueball travels on the tangent line depends upon the speed of the cueball when it strikes the object ball....a slower-moving cueball will diverge sooner, and faster-travelling cueball will stay on the tangent line longer. Top spin and bottom spin have a pronounced effect on this path.

I've seen a number of people scratch when the object ball is near the side pocket and they are attempting to pocket it in a corner pocket when the scratch was easily avoidable. All they had to understand is that a harder hit is not the answer...it's like they think if they hit the cueball hard enough somehow it will magically miss that side pocket. The harder hit causes it to stick to the tangent line like it was on rails...right into the side pocket. A very soft hit (maybe with some top or bottom) would pocket the ball in the corner and send the cueball into the cushion just past (or before) the side pocket. Many of the corner pocket scratches I see are victims of the 30 degree rule. The shooter expects the cueball to stay on the tangent line on a long shot and is completely surprised when it bends to 30 degrees and right into the corner pocket.

The one scratch that we all know will happen but is a mystery is the one where you are trying to cut a ball into a corner pocket that is frozen (or very nearly frozen) to either the foot rail or the head rail near the center of the rail. Especially if you are shooting from the other end of the table. If you make the cut, that cueball is going to find a pocket at the other end of the table (the end you're shooting from) every time. A little spin in either direction (left or right) seems to prevent it, but also makes pocketing the ball much trickier. I've actually given up on even trying to pocket these balls in a match. I learned to present my opponent with nearly the same shot in the opposite direction.
 
Last edited:
I appreciate all the responses and I'm aware of all the areas of avoiding with spin or causing with spin. And I will admit that my original post was sort of 'out of frustration'. I've just had this happen several times lately.

I think you all maybe be talking about different situations than I'm talking about though. I was at home when I made the post and didn't have the table link handy. So here is what I was talking about. 1st is the bank shot that I scratched on Saturday. I don't think I was out of line not being to concerned about the scratch in the side considering the angle it was going to be heading toward the side pocket at. Needed position anywhere down table. Synch the shot with straight follow.


START(
%Am3R5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pa7T0%Ur4T4%Vn0S2%Wk3R8%Xc0S7
%Y]5Z8%Zr8U0%[r6Q1%\n4R0
)END




And here is an example of the cut shot I was talking about. When I shoot this I'm not expecting to scratch because of the severe angle the cue ball will be traveling toward the side pocket.


START(
%Al6Q8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pa8S7%Ur4T4%Vm4S3%Wl0S1%Xc0S7
%Y]5Z8%Zr8U0%[q8E4%\m2P5
)END
 
Last edited:
There is a rule that if the cue ball is heading toward the side pocket, it will always make the pocket, if it is an object ball heading toward the side pocket, it will always miss the pocket! :D :D

Anyway I was told a cool rule about avoiding scratches: If the cue ball comes back through the center of the table with any shot other than a straight in shot, it will not scratch.
 
A couple of months ago I was practising 14.1, and my run of 50 or something ended in a scratch like this. I usually take care that I miss the side pocket with some margin, but it never occurred to me that I could scratch from here, it was just a perfect combination of speed and angle and the cueball just dropped in after a moment of hesitation. (Didn't include the rest of the balls here)

START(
%Ao3U1%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pj9X4%Ur4V5%Vo3V0%Wn7V2%Xk3W8
%Y\0[3%Zs1W1%[r5E1%\o6T1
)END

If you have a gameball like this, you should play it in a way to avoid going too near the sidepocket. You could play it with either english or just control the cueball by using the whole pocket by over- or undercutting the ball.

START(
%Al8O0%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pb4R4%Ur5R3%Vl3O7%Wk5P0%Xc3R3
%Y\0Z9%Zr9R7%[r5E1%\m0N1
)END

The situation is different if your cueball is much further away. Now, you can't really control the cueball with a different cut, nor it's reasonable to use either english. So now you just have to shoot the ball in and hope not to scratch in the side. If you think about shooting with low right, think again. I think you'll miss more of this shot because of the excess spin than scratching in the side with plain ball.

START(
%Al8O0%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PJ0U2%Ur5R3%Vl3O7%Wk5P0%XJ7U0
%Y\0Z9%Zr9R7%[r5E1%\m0N1
)END

Just my two cents...
 
mjantti said:
A couple of months ago I was practising 14.1, and my run of 50 or something ended in a scratch like this. I usually take care that I miss the side pocket with some margin, but it never occurred to me that I could scratch from here, it was just a perfect combination of speed and angle and the cueball just dropped in after a moment of hesitation. (Didn't include the rest of the balls here)

START(
%Ao3U1%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pj9X4%Ur4V5%Vo3V0%Wn7V2%Xk3W8
%Y\0[3%Zs1W1%[r5E1%\o6T1
)END
Click to expand...


Now that is exactly what I'm talking about only yours was even more severe than mine. The bank I played was tough enough without having to put anything on it to keep the cue away from the side so I counted on the angle it was approaching the side pocket to keep it from scratching.
 
I attribute these shots to a 'Bad Roll' I have seen balls come off the end inside the Diamond nearest the side pocket at high speed and somehow end up in the side. BAD ROLLS in my opinion. Actually in our final match in the playoffs, our team lost 3 games this way, 2 times it happened getting shape on the 8 ball and one time it happened on the actual 8 ball. All of them were pretty severe angles. At the same time, the other team had it nearly happen twice, it hit the knuckle for perfect shape, both times for them. Ahh well the Pool Gods weren't with us that night. I may be a sore loser, but i honestly feel that if the 'Rolls' were even we woulda taken that match. It just seemed we had alot of bad fortune and they had alot of good fortune. And I am generally a person that puts ALL THE BLAME on himself. I don't ever blame equipment, distractions etc... In fact a bunch of times when people were purposely trying to shark me, and i miss because of it, if anyone mentions i got sharked, or someone was talking, etc... my answer is generally 'Yeah, but if i wanna be a good player i gotta learn to concentrate in ALL situations.'
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top