Scratch Straight Pool League starting up in Tampa Bay area

John Biddle

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm starting up a scratch (no handicap) straight pool league in the Tampa Bay area. I currently have 12 players but would love to get a few more. I'm still ironing out a detail here or there but overall it will work like this:

You get a schedule and a contact sheet with everyone's email and phone at the beginning of the season (it's updated weekly in an email sent with all the match results and standings).

You call your opponent and make a match at your mutual convenience whenever and wherever you choose to play.

Fee is $25 per player per week

1st place will be at least $2,500

If you have any interest, or know of someone who would be interested, send me a PM ASAP with your real name, outside email, and phone.

If you have any questions or comments feel encouraged to share.
 
I wish I lived closer, I would love to play in s non-handicap league.

Sounds like a great format.

Keep us posted on the league including standings and what not, we'd all love to follow it.

Lots of luck
Steve
 
I wish I lived closer, I would love to play in s non-handicap league.

Sounds like a great format.

Keep us posted on the league including standings and what not, we'd all love to follow it.

Lots of luck
Steve

SK... This would be great for us. I would love to play in a scratch/non-handicaped league.
 
Hello, John - could you give us a few more details when you have them ironed out on how you and the others will be organizing and running this 14.1 league in the Tampa area? Perhaps we can all get a few ideas on how to set up and successfully run a similar group in other parts of the country.

How many total matches does one play at $25 each? Is it one match or race to 3, etc? If any matches are played at a club or room, were you able to get any agreed rates for table time and matches? Any of the monies going to the organizer or the club or owner of the table? Match length, etc. All tables same size or just agreed upon? That sort of stuff :-)

I'd like to set up a similar home based / round robin type group of players in the Fort Worth, TX area covering numerous games and disciplines such as 14.1, American Rotation, 10 ball, Bowlliards, and Baseball for a few examples in an All-Around format for the adventurous and daring.

Thank you for offering any suggestions and best of luck with your group out of Tampa!



LIVFST
 
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I'm happy to tell you what I'm attempting to do, and can fill you in in a few days with what actually happened the first week, which ends this Sunday.

As previously mentioned, the league is scratch, i.e., no handicap. Fee is $25 per match per player. Matches are once a week, one game to 150, and there is a full round robin. You could think of it as a sloooooow tournament. There is no penalty for playing out of turn, but with no handicaps and no handicap changes, not much benefit either. This should make scheduling much easier for some very busy people. At the end of the last week, any unplayed matches are forfeited. This level of payment along with only paying for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, meant there would be a large payout ($2,500 for winner with 14 players).

This is something new, it's expensive compared to any other league the players have ever heard of, many players don't know therefore don't yet trust me, they'll have to drive further than they'd like, and it's a game they don't play or haven't played in a long time. Believe me it was an uphill battle to sign folks up.

I tried to get as many people as I could, and had help contacting many people I didn't know, but for one reason or another was only able to get 14 who committed to playing as of the weekend before the start of the first week (bet you know what's coming).

Because the talent level will be much higher without handicaps, I had to pull from a much wider geographic area than other leagues. There are a few people who will play in a league like this for the experience of playing much stronger players, but not very many (I only found 1 other than myself).

Tying play to one pool hall would be a problem because of travel times. It's one thing to drive an hour for an all day tournament, quite another to do it every week for 3 months. I Thought of allowing play anywhere the players could agree on, but that made collecting the money a big problem. I compromised on 2 locations 30 min apart, each of which (Corner Pocket in Largo and Stroker's in Palm Harbor) was willing to collect and hold the money for me. They are both terrific pool halls and I heartily endorse them.

Based on experience from a handicapped 14.1 league I run, I was worried about the possibility of people losing the 1st game or two and quitting, so I implemented a deposit system. In addition to the regular weekly fee of $25, I collect $100 up front on the 1st week and it pays for the last four week's matches. No incremental cost, but it's forfeited if you withdraw.

I had 3 people quit the weekend before the start and one more leave on the 1st day of play. That leaves 10, so the prize pool will of course be much smaller, but if all of these stick it out I think we'll have a success and will probably do a season 2 and get more people. If more leave I just have no idea.

I'm taking ~12% but using that money to pay my way in, so am netting only $100. Would have been more with more players, but still not much considering all the work I'm doing. I love this game and want to do whatever I can to help it come back.
 
Sorry, K2Kraze, I forgot to answer a couple of your questions.

I did not secure any special table time arrangements at either of the locations. The amount of traffic generated wouldn't be great and they'd be sharing it. Both have very modest rates and both offer $5 all day until 7 PM rates.

Both Stroker's and Corner Pocket only have 9 foot tables, Stroker's 2 Diamond, 4 Brunswick and 9 Robertson with very similar pockets. Corner Pocket tables are all Gandys, one of which is extremely tight and another quite tight. Players can play on any table they agree on, but I recommend against the two tight pocket tables.
 
Thank you for taking the time again, John ---

Where there's a will there's surely a way and it looks like a good start with some interesting ideas you've started this no HC league with. It sure doesn't help when 4 players out of 14 drop out before week 1 gets under way and their contributions to the prize fund along with them.

Here are a few thoughts maybe worth tossing around to help each seasons stability and keep the energy and interest going - some of which we use in a seasonal 14.1 group where I currently play:

1) Allow all players to complete all of their matches anytime during the posted "season" amongst themselves since some have busier months or weeks than others - vacations, sick times, kids, events and the like.

2) Have everyone pay up front for the entire season (or offer other payment ideas so you don't have to make any trips to any club just "to collect") before match ONE. How about allowing PayPal gifting directly to you as one possible way to get everyone's full season "deposit" so to speak in before kick-off. We know this was once called The Gentleman's Game, where your word was all that it took to guarantee a full season of commitment - maybe we can change that a tad to reflect modern times and refer to 14.1 as The Modern Man's Game ;-)

3) Since no particular club would now be holding fees collected, that opens the door to even more flexibility and other location "adventures" on any size table as long as both agree. You could have an accurate compiled list of possible club choices with tables and pocket sizes, rates and club prices and times/food specials, etc. It could also allow players to even host a few games on their own table if the other player agrees. I know a few friends that have some beautifully set up 9' GC's that I'd play on any day. There's even an 8' table with Mosconi record-run sized pockets that some may want to try.

4) Trophies. Small but still a trophy. Goes along with the prize monies of course. Optional if they don't want to take it but not taking the trophy for whatever reason doesn't get them any more money - it simply passes to next sessions trophy stash - engraved plates for the trophies aren't set until the last match is competed and winners announced anyway.

5) Cash prize for Highest RUN or possibly even Highest BPI in addition to the top few finish players based on Won/Loss record during the normal season.

6) Have the per-match fees lower and have a double Round-Robin setup ---- or even make the season end with a playoff series held amongst the top four finishers and those players then are guaranteed a cash payout. Pay 1st through 4th. Like a single elimination quarter/semi-final brackets with matches to 150 and the Final a best of 3 or something. That would be 7 Matches (of say one frames each for the Quarters/Semis and best of 3 for the Final) and those match monies collected from those 7 matches goes to buying the trophies - or increasing their own prize fund.

7) For scoring, have "the League" members use an electronic phone/pad scoring app that they can forward to you for stat keeping and determining records as the season progresses. Again, no reason to make a drive to collect monies or score sheets. The Modern Man's Game :-)

Those are a few different ideas, along with all of yours currently being tried, to come up with whatever brainstormed modern league organization to get more of us together playing game we love. Imagine the possibilities. Flexibility and options could only enhance the games. And attract more players. Hopefully :-)

Great work, John!

Kerry


LIVFST
 
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Wow, lots of ideas. Comments follow.

1) Allow all players to complete all of their matches anytime during the posted "season" amongst themselves since some have busier months or weeks than others - vacations, sick times, kids, events and the like.

Though not explicit, our format allows this to happen, it just does not encourage it. My belief is that most members will benefit from a schedule and because of it will tend to "keep up" more or less.

2) Have everyone pay up front for the entire season (or offer other payment ideas so you don't have to make any trips to any club just "to collect") before match ONE. How about allowing PayPal gifting directly to you as one possible way to get everyone's full season "deposit" so to speak in before kick-off. We know this was once called The Gentleman's Game, where your word was all that it took to guarantee a full season of commitment - maybe we can change that a tad to reflect modern times and refer to 14.1 as The Modern Man's Game ;-)

I thought of that, and was concerned that too many would balk. I was more interested in getting a high participation and let that influence me. I thought the "deposit" idea would be a good compromise. We'll see. Paypal, or something like it, is on tap for the future as part of a fully automated website.

3) Since no particular club would now be holding fees collected, that opens the door to even more flexibility and other location "adventures" on any size table as long as both agree. You could have an accurate compiled list of possible club choices with tables and pocket sizes, rates and club prices and times/food specials, etc. It could also allow players to even host a few games on their own table if the other player agrees. I know a few friends that have some beautifully set up 9' GC's that I'd play on any day. There's even an 8' table with Mosconi record-run sized pockets that some may want to try.

I myself would have no issues re:what tables the players agreed to play on. It's one more thing to potentially disagree about, but in practice I think it's not likely to be an issue. Playing at someone's home would be interesting, and if offered up as a venue by the owner and accepted then I'd be OK with that too. What if, though, after arriving the nonowner discovered it wasn't to his liking, the cloth was crappy or the wall was too close on one side? In a cheap league these would be small points, but with serious money at stake, people can get very persnickity.

4) Trophies. Small but still a trophy. Goes along with the prize monies of course. Optional if they don't want to take it but not taking the trophy for whatever reason doesn't get them any more money - it simply passes to next sessions trophy stash - engraved plates for the trophies aren't set until the last match is competed and winners announced anyway.

I don't think this would be worth the money for most of the participants. A plaque, which could be updated every season with that season's winner would be better received, I think, but where would we hang it, if we're playing all over. A virtual plaque on the future website I mentioned above might work, it'd be real cheap ;) and always available for anyone to see.

This idea might work much better in a bigger handicapped league tied to a specific pool hall. Trophies might go over better, but I think the plaque wins here as well.

5) Cash prize for Highest RUN or possibly even Highest BPI in addition to the top few finish players based on Won/Loss record during the normal season.

As to BPI, I don't know how receptive the high skilled players would be keeping detailed data about every game. I didn't ask, given my experience in two handicapped leagues (with players of widely varying skills). Maybe they'd feel differently. As far as paying out for a high run, that would be fine for seasons 2+. I just wanted to keep it simple the 1st time out.

6) Have the per-match fees lower and have a double Round-Robin setup ---- or even make the season end with a playoff series held amongst the top four finishers and those players then are guaranteed a cash payout. Pay 1st through 4th. Like a single elimination quarter/semi-final brackets with matches to 150 and the Final a best of 3 or something. That would be 7 Matches (of say one frames each for the Quarters/Semis and best of 3 for the Final) and those match monies collected from those 7 matches goes to buying the trophies - or increasing their own prize fund.

I purposely avoided having a playoff, even in the event of a tie. Here's how I explained it to the players:

The winner, 2nd and 3rd places will be determined by number of wins. In the event of a tie, Total Balls will be the tie breaker, so even if you are way behind, every ball counts. If there is still a tie, whoever won the head to head match gets the win. Play-offs would make more sense in a league tied to a venue.

7) For scoring, have "the League" members use an electronic phone/pad scoring app that they can forward to you for stat keeping and determining records as the season progresses. Again, no reason to make a drive to collect monies or score sheets. The Modern Man's Game :-)

I like this, and would be happy to do it. Not all my players would. I have a person without a cell phone, people without smart phones, etc. The most interested in this league were the old guys, not all of whom want to fool with this "modern" stuff.

My limited use of a scoring app I tried out on an Android tablet was fun but frustrating. All the mistakes, poor error handling, I wasn't impressed. Not bad for nearly free, but not good enough to require where $thousands are at stake. Maybe they are better now, I'm sure they could be, but again, I just kept it simple. I provide a blank Match Result sheet they get from the pool hall which has places for the date, location, names, scores, high runs and signatures of both players. Asking more than that at this point in my project would just unnecessarily complicate things with very limited reward.

Once successful, I'd like to introduce things that would streamline the process of collecting the money, making the match appointments, and gathering/massaging/publishing the results.

Thanks again for your input. I like a lot of what you suggest but went with the KISS principle for now.
 
I'm happy to tell you what I'm attempting to do, and can fill you in in a few days with what actually happened the first week, which ends this Sunday.

As previously mentioned, the league is scratch, i.e., no handicap. Fee is $25 per match per player. Matches are once a week, one game to 150, and there is a full round robin. You could think of it as a sloooooow tournament. There is no penalty for playing out of turn, but with no handicaps and no handicap changes, not much benefit either. This should make scheduling much easier for some very busy people. At the end of the last week, any unplayed matches are forfeited. This level of payment along with only paying for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, meant there would be a large payout ($2,500 for winner with 14 players).

This is something new, it's expensive compared to any other league the players have ever heard of, many players don't know therefore don't yet trust me, they'll have to drive further than they'd like, and it's a game they don't play or haven't played in a long time. Believe me it was an uphill battle to sign folks up.

I tried to get as many people as I could, and had help contacting many people I didn't know, but for one reason or another was only able to get 14 who committed to playing as of the weekend before the start of the first week (bet you know what's coming).

Because the talent level will be much higher without handicaps, I had to pull from a much wider geographic area than other leagues. There are a few people who will play in a league like this for the experience of playing much stronger players, but not very many (I only found 1 other than myself).

Tying play to one pool hall would be a problem because of travel times. It's one thing to drive an hour for an all day tournament, quite another to do it every week for 3 months. I Thought of allowing play anywhere the players could agree on, but that made collecting the money a big problem. I compromised on 2 locations 30 min apart, each of which (Corner Pocket in Largo and Stroker's in Palm Harbor) was willing to collect and hold the money for me. They are both terrific pool halls and I heartily endorse them.

Based on experience from a handicapped 14.1 league I run, I was worried about the possibility of people losing the 1st game or two and quitting, so I implemented a deposit system. In addition to the regular weekly fee of $25, I collect $100 up front on the 1st week and it pays for the last four week's matches. No incremental cost, but it's forfeited if you withdraw.

I had 3 people quit the weekend before the start and one more leave on the 1st day of play. That leaves 10, so the prize pool will of course be much smaller, but if all of these stick it out I think we'll have a success and will probably do a season 2 and get more people. If more leave I just have no idea.

I'm taking ~12% but using that money to pay my way in, so am netting only $100. Would have been more with more players, but still not much considering all the work I'm doing. I love this game and want to do whatever I can to help it come back.


Good Luck to you John. I thought I'd share some of our experience with the same kind of league we developed in Chicago.

When we started our non-handicapped straight pool league in Chicago, we had a bunch of players from handicapped leagues to draw from so it was easier than starting up from scratch. Some of the players had been playing in the leagues for ten years or more and a few of us got tired of giving up big handicaps all the time. A few older timers said things like, when I was learning how to play straight pool, there were no handicaps. You just had to get better if you wanted to win. That was sort of the background we had before we started our first one.

Rich Klein, who by then was running the handicapped league said he figured we might get 8 or 10 people. We got around 30 and have been getting between 28 and 36 every session.

I figured part of the tough sell was "How do I get a guy who usually goes for example to 75 to want to play a guy who usually goes to 150 even up?" I decided to keep the entry fee as low as possible and tell people this is not a league to make money in. This is a league to play straight pool, sometimes against great players, and learn how to play better. For the cream of the crop, we had to sell it as them sort of doing a service to the pool community, helping to develop the game that maybe they love, and by the way, there will be some money in the event, and you will probably get a lot of it.

Since the majority of the players did not have much of a chance for finishing in the top 25%, we made the entry fee as cheap as we could. $10 per week, half goes to the house for greens fees. In our third session, we raised it to $15 a week, still a bargain for a great straight pool match every week.

Players get $7.50 for each win and the top 25% of the players split up the prize fund after we award $300,$200,$100 for the top high runs.


Once we had Bobby Hunter and Tom Karabatsos on board, a lot of people were attracted to it. Ike Runnels,while not a straight pool player jumped in and ran a 167 in the first session. Ron Shepard plays pretty fair and has beaten Bobby Hunter and Tom Karabatsos at least once each.

The top players end up with a pretty good payday. The middling players get some of their money back. Even the players who do not play so good get tons of table time and some informal lessons with world beaters after their matches.

So far, it has worked out pretty good.
 
Thank you as well, Dennis, for your contributions to this thread and giving the rest of us great ideas as to how we all may incorporate them into a successful and rewarding straight pool league - or any game league for that matter.

Much appreciated!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Good Luck to you John. I thought I'd share some of our experience with the same kind of league we developed in Chicago.

When we started our non-handicapped straight pool league in Chicago, we had a bunch of players from handicapped leagues to draw from so it was easier than starting up from scratch. Some of the players had been playing in the leagues for ten years or more and a few of us got tired of giving up big handicaps all the time. A few older timers said things like, when I was learning how to play straight pool, there were no handicaps. You just had to get better if you wanted to win. That was sort of the background we had before we started our first one.

With all the griping I heard about handicaps in a straight pool league I participated in for about 5 years, I don't believe that regular players here would participate in a scratch league. Even if the highest skilled players were denied entry (like in many local tournaments) they still wouldn't get in if they knew up front they could not win. There are people who would, who love the game and competition and are happy to "pay their dues" on the way to improving, just not very many.

I only know of two local straight pool leagues and both are handicapped, one 5+ years old and the other just starting it's second season (mine). I didn't approach everyone in the long running league as I didn't want to be seen as poaching, but did approach a few people I knew but only 2 were interested, and one of those is very strong, best player in a 28 person league.

Rich Klein, who by then was running the handicapped league said he figured we might get 8 or 10 people. We got around 30 and have been getting between 28 and 36 every session.

I figured part of the tough sell was "How do I get a guy who usually goes for example to 75 to want to play a guy who usually goes to 150 even up?" I decided to keep the entry fee as low as possible and tell people this is not a league to make money in. This is a league to play straight pool, sometimes against great players, and learn how to play better. For the cream of the crop, we had to sell it as them sort of doing a service to the pool community, helping to develop the game that maybe they love, and by the way, there will be some money in the event, and you will probably get a lot of it.

Since the majority of the players did not have much of a chance for finishing in the top 25%, we made the entry fee as cheap as we could. $10 per week, half goes to the house for greens fees. In our third session, we raised it to $15 a week, still a bargain for a great straight pool match every week.

Players get $7.50 for each win and the top 25% of the players split up the prize fund after we award $300,$200,$100 for the top high runs.

I'm amazed that you got such a big response, congratulations. Chicagi is a little bigger than Pinellas County FL though, so that may be part of it. I only went the high dollar route because I thought I would need to appeal to very strong player, most if not all of whom haven't played 14.1 in years, maybe decades. Couldn't get to a big prize without big fees. Your approach is very interesting and I wonder if I had kept the price down whether I might have gotten a lot more lesser skilled players. But I'd just be robbing from existing 14.1 leagues and that wasn't really my goal.[/QUOTE]

Once we had Bobby Hunter and Tom Karabatsos on board, a lot of people were attracted to it. Ike Runnels,while not a straight pool player jumped in and ran a 167 in the first session. Ron Shepard plays pretty fair and has beaten Bobby Hunter and Tom Karabatsos at least once each.

The top players end up with a pretty good payday. The middling players get some of their money back. Even the players who do not play so good get tons of table time and some informal lessons with world beaters after their matches.

So far, it has worked out pretty good.

I'm very impressed with what you've accomplished and hope I can be too. This seaon will be a little rough, but I'm hoping one successful season will change doubter's minds. I'll experiment with some of your ideas, at least in a survey, to see if they might bring in more players.

Thanks for your comments. You have provided so much for the 14.1 community, and probably don't get thanked enough, so thank-you very much.
 
With all the griping I heard about handicaps in a straight pool league I participated in for about 5 years, I don't believe that regular players here would participate in a scratch league. Even if the highest skilled players were denied entry (like in many local tournaments) they still wouldn't get in if they knew up front they could not win. There are people who would, who love the game and competition and are happy to "pay their dues" on the way to improving, just not very many.

I only know of two local straight pool leagues and both are handicapped, one 5+ years old and the other just starting it's second season (mine). I didn't approach everyone in the long running league as I didn't want to be seen as poaching, but did approach a few people I knew but only 2 were interested, and one of those is very strong, best player in a 28 person league.



I'm amazed that you got such a big response, congratulations. Chicago is a little bigger than Pinellas County FL though, so that may be part of it. I only went the high dollar route because I thought I would need to appeal to very strong player, most if not all of whom haven't played 14.1 in years, maybe decades. Couldn't get to a big prize without big fees. Your approach is very interesting and I wonder if I had kept the price down whether I might have gotten a lot more lesser skilled players. But I'd just be robbing from existing 14.1 leagues and that wasn't really my goal.

I'm very impressed with what you've accomplished and hope I can be too. This seaon will be a little rough, but I'm hoping one successful season will change doubter's minds. I'll experiment with some of your ideas, at least in a survey, to see if they might bring in more players.

Thanks for your comments. You have provided so much for the 14.1 community, and probably don't get thanked enough, so thank-you very much.

John: I was lucky in that we already had a fairly well established handicapped league at the same venue (Red Shoes) and no one minded us offering them a different straight pool experience. Top players like Bobby Hunter, Tom Karabatsos, John Rawski, Mike Eck, Ike Runnels had not been a part of the handicapped leagues but perked up when they realized there was no handicap.

In our last session, Bobby Hunter took first place and high run prize and took home $1700; Tom Karabatsos took home over a grand. Not too bad. Some of our players also pay the weekly entry for people like Tom, Bobby and Ike that have pool related activities as their main source of income and whom we want to encourage to participate.

Finally, I remember the first night of the first session. As you looked around you had people like the above mentioned and you could glance from table to table and see everyone playing 14.1. Often after some of the matches, you would have Tom K demonstrating a break shot over and over while around 5 or 6 people watched and peppered him with questions. I remember Bruce Perry a/k/a the Ghost, looking around and asking me how I got all those guys to play 14.1. I'd tell him it's a much better game than one pocket.

Anyway hope that your efforts to spread the gospel bears fruit.:thumbup:
 
I'm curious, how big a place is Red Shoes?

nowadays 15 big tables and 2 bar tables.

We have too many matches to accommodate 18 matches at 7:00 p.m. every Wednesday, so we denote certain players as "table savers" and they are to play on a different day. Everyone is free to and is encouraged to find alternate times to play so we don't use all the tables. Works out pretty good.
 

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I'm afraid our scratch league died from a lack of participation. A handful of players were actively trying to give it a go, but just as many simply stopped communicating, making it impossible to go forward.

I gave everyone their money back (or will when I see them next) and have moved on. I don't know what the problem was, there were simply too many variables, but I may revisit this in a couple years, after I've had more league running experience, know a lot more players, get a lot more folks playing 14.1, etc.

Now on to a 1P league in addition to my handicapped 14.1 league.
 
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