Screw on or Sleeve type Ferrule .... ???

mjantti said:
I did like the cue but actually I got my hands on a very solid hitting Bear cue right after the repair and got a good deal on the Longoni cue with the same person. And the Bear cue proved to be one of the best cues I've ever hit and I played with it for 6 years. Now I have just purchased another Bear cue and like it very much...
Click to expand...

Great .... I dont think I have ever seen a Bear cue.
Where is the cuemaker located?

Anyhow, I guess 6 years is enough time to assess if the cue is what you like.
It alos ounds like there is an oppertunity for someone in your area to get hold of a repair lathe and do some business.
 
mjantti said:
the Bear cue proved to be one of the best cues I've ever hit and I played with it for 6 years. Now I have just purchased another Bear cue and like it very much...
Click to expand...
Is this the Bear Cue from Germany or the US custom cue maker Mark Bear?

Zim
 
Michael Webb said:
THere's a few different systems listed, I do threaded only with a cap.
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Mike,
I am with you and I really don't know what to make of all this bull puckey against the threaded ferrule. I have cues that are over 40 years old and I am sure the ferrules are threaded and they are ivory. None have cracked, none have "pulled" the threaded tenon off the end of the shaft. I think someone is trying to reinvent the wheel, and in all probability neither has an advantage if done properly. Maybe one is easier than the other, or whatever. But if it was good enough for 40 years I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be good now. This is a simple mechanical connection. (Not talking playability, or techno physics (deflection) all that aside)

Now if someone wanted to say that when using Ivorine this style or that style is better, I could buy that. Maybe you shouldn't thread Aegis, or micarta or whatever..

Joe
 
classiccues said:
Mike,
I am with you and I really don't know what to make of all this bull puckey against the threaded ferrule. I have cues that are over 40 years old and I am sure the ferrules are threaded and they are ivory. None have cracked, none have "pulled" the threaded tenon off the end of the shaft. I think someone is trying to reinvent the wheel, and in all probability neither has an advantage if done properly. Maybe one is easier than the other, or whatever. But if it was good enough for 40 years I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be good now. Joe
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Joe, I didnt see anyone posting "bull puckey against the threaded ferrule".
(direct quote)

So ... you are basing your opinion upon owning cues that are 40 years old and have no problems with the ferrules you think are threaded?

When I posted this thread I was hoping that experienced CUEMAKERS and REPAIRMEN would share their opinions learned by hands on experience and actual knowledge.

Perhaps I need to refer to Chris Hghtower's book on cuemaking.
I think I recall a chapter on Ferrules. <G>
 
bull puckey.... right on. i think people just want an easier way to do the job.

and whats with the shear strength epoxy? i though cueing was a compresion
force. :confused:

by the way jon that was a nice drawing,i bet it would work nice, maybee a little over kill? but nice.
 
merylane said:
bull puckey.... right on. i think people just want an easier way to do the job.

and whats with the shear strength epoxy? i though cueing was a compresion
force. :confused:

by the way jon that was a nice drawing,i bet it would work nice, maybee a little over kill? but nice.
Click to expand...

merry..

An easier way to do something is ok. Well I guess if you miscue bad enough you could shear the ferrule off the end of the shaft. :) But at that point maybe pool isn't for you.
But for excrement and giggles lets take a .512 ferrule and put a 5/16 threaded tenon 1 1/4 lg. How many cuemakers would runt the 5/16 thread to "meet" the shaft? Not a smart one. The best thing to do there from an engineering standpoint would be a .375 shoulder an 1/8-3/16 lg. Why? This way if there was "shear" it would have to go trough a .375 solid area vs the minor diameter of a 5/16 thread around .240 depending on the class fit. I guess one could make the shoulder bigger if they felt this was an area of concern. I believe most screwed ferrules are close to this, and I understand why people do slip on ferrules as an alternative.
As a player, dealer and sometimes repairman I can say I like all my ferrules threaded. I fail to see "shear" as an issue, and have never had one fail for this.

Joe

Joe
 
WilleeCue said:
Joe, I didnt see anyone posting "bull puckey against the threaded ferrule".
(direct quote)

So ... you are basing your opinion upon owning cues that are 40 years old and have no problems with the ferrules you think are threaded?

When I posted this thread I was hoping that experienced CUEMAKERS and REPAIRMEN would share their opinions learned by hands on experience and actual knowledge.

Perhaps I need to refer to Chris Hghtower's book on cuemaking.
I think I recall a chapter on Ferrules. <G>
Click to expand...

Willee,
Up until now I have really held back on refuting any post you have had, even ones that you directly answered something I said. In other words I am ignoring you. If you want to bring it here, I can and will and will have no problem doing so. But I recommend you not to go that route. This will be the last post from me to you.

Joe
 
WilleeCue said:
Joe, I didnt see anyone posting "bull puckey against the threaded ferrule".
(direct quote)

So ... you are basing your opinion upon owning cues that are 40 years old and have no problems with the ferrules you think are threaded?

When I posted this thread I was hoping that experienced CUEMAKERS and REPAIRMEN would share their opinions learned by hands on experience and actual knowledge.

Perhaps I need to refer to Chris Hghtower's book on cuemaking.
I think I recall a chapter on Ferrules. <G>
Click to expand...

In the chapter on ferrules I drew the threads going all the way to the end of the ferrule, buy in reality when I make a ferrule from scratch I have a 5/16" bore about 1/8" deep before the threads start. I then cut the tenon to 5/16" back there and thread the front part .280-18 threads per inch. That is an undersize 5/16 thread. The shoulder works as an alignment/centering point and I have never seen one done like that give any trouble. In my opinion if you increase the diameter to 3/8" as has been suggested I feel that makes the wall too thin there and more likely to crack down the road. Meucci used a 3/8" tenon for years and kept us cue repairmen in business with ferrule work. Now Meucci even solid caps some of their ferrules.
WILLEE: there were some posts against threaded ferrules, but not by you. Joe may have thought they were "puckey", and he has a right to his opinion. Don't get too mad at him as we all think some peoples ideas are not all that great.
JOE: it would probably be better not to call someones ideas "bull puckey" unless you want to start a feud. One of those who said things against threaded ferrules can get downright mad at times. And we don't want another round of those kinds of posts to get started. By the way Joe I do think threaded is the best way to go and that is how I put all the ferrules on my cues.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com
www.cuesmith.com
 
cueman said:
In the chapter on ferrules I drew the threads going all the way to the end of the ferrule, buy in reality when I make a ferrule from scratch I have a 5/16" bore about 1/8" deep before the threads start. I then cut the tenon to 5/16" back there and thread the front part .280-18 threads per inch. That is an undersize 5/16 thread. The shoulder works as an alignment/centering point and I have never seen one done like that give any trouble. In my opinion if you increase the diameter to 3/8" as has been suggested I feel that makes the wall too thin there and more likely to crack down the road. Meucci used a 3/8" tenon for years and kept us cue repairmen in business with ferrule work. Now Meucci even solid caps some of their ferrules.
JOE: it would probably be better not to call someones ideas "bull puckey" unless you want to start a feud. One of those who said things against threaded ferrules can get downright mad at times. And we don't want another round of those kinds of posts to get started. By the way Joe I do think threaded is the best way to go and that is how I put all the ferrules on my cues.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com
www.cuesmith.com
Click to expand...

Chris,
I used .375 because its a round number and easier to visualize, I wasn't trying to be specific. I agree that the oversized end can be a centering pilot and think its the best solution for a ferrule. Meucci ferrules IMHO cracked cause of the bore size and the ferrule material. Do people replace these? Of course, its one of the biggest complaints you hear on Meucci's.
I am not here to worry about huting feelings, but I read to much b.s. laid out there. I think what should be explained is that a slip on ferrule done correctly will likely last along time, as will a threaded ferrule. Hit is subjective and since thats the case, I am sure a cuemaker that slips on the ferrule will say his cues play great. The exact same thing I would expect someone who threaded their ferrules to say. Same with different joints, etc..
I have been around cues along time, I have never been seen a ferrule that was tightened so severely that it ripped the tenon off the shaft. I equate that statement with something like, if a linen wrap is too tight it will shrink the diameter of the handle :)

Joe
 
Zims Rack said:
Is this the Bear Cue from Germany or the US custom cue maker Mark Bear?

Zim
Click to expand...

Bear production cue, not Mark Bear custom cue. I think Bear cues are great for the money... Bustamante and Tom Storm play with one.

Not many custom cues available here in Finland. Seems like no one has the courage to order a custom cue, because there is no cues to try out here... Sigh. Example, my friend managed to acquire a Black Boar cue... no one except I and she seems to understand the value of the cue and how good it hits. I think most popular cues around are Bear, Predator and perhaps Meucci. And people are willing to pay a lot of money for those, but aren't willing to order a custom cue overseas. I hope I had the money to buy a good cue to my specs...
 
classiccues said:
Willee,
Up until now I have really held back on refuting any post you have had, even ones that you directly answered something I said. In other words I am ignoring you. If you want to bring it here, I can and will and will have no problem doing so. But I recommend you not to go that route. This will be the last post from me to you. Joe
Click to expand...

Sorry, Joe, if you took my reply as offensive.
I was just expressing an opinion just like you.
I do have that right dont I?
It was not intended to be a stomp on your toes.
All I was doing was questioning what you were basing your ASSUMPTIONS upon.
Feel free to refute any claim I make here or any advice I might give.
Which by the way is getting less and less common because of people that think they know everything and cant control their child like emoitions.
It just aint worth all the "bull pucky" to try to help someone out in a public forum.
You may question my statments anytime just as I may question yours.
We will see who gives the most straight up answers and who weasel words their way around issues. Just be carefull about how you "paraphrase" things .... I started this thread and I can delete it anytime someone gets out of line with it.
If you choose to carry a grudge or ingore what I post here, that is your choice and has little to do with wheather I chose to ingnore you and the posts you make.
Sounds to me like you are still bitter about that bet you lost and refused to pay.
 
cueman said:
WILLEE: there were some posts against threaded ferrules, but not by you. Joe may have thought they were "puckey", and he has a right to his opinion. Don't get too mad at him as we all think some peoples ideas are not all that great.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com
www.cuesmith.com
Click to expand...

Chris, I am not mad about anything.
I was just questioning what he was basing his assumptions upon.
Personaly, I have not made up my mind yet one way or the other as to wheather there are any real advantages to threading on a ferrule and that is why I started this thread.
I want to hear what others think and reserve the right to ask questions about their opinions.
Questioning someones opinions dont mean I am mad, it means I would like to understand more about how that person arrived at his conclusions.
The only reason that I referenced your book is beacuse I have taken so much hazing about learning cuemaking from it.
Go Figure <G>
 
One of the posts mentioned threaded ferrules could possibly twist the tenon off. I replaced the ferrule on one of my cues a while back (it was threaded). I always make my ferrules completely from scratch and use boring bars, so I am certain that the internal thread and the outside of the ferrule is very concentric (within .005, probably within .002). I put this ferrule on, tightened it with a pair of pliers (finger tight), and then clamped it. When the glue cured and I put it in my lathe, the ferrule was noticeably non-concentric with the shaft. I think it was off by maybe .050. I wasn't sure what happened at the time, but now I think that the tenon must have twisted slightly. This was my personal cue so I wasn't worried about giving it to a customer. It has held up fine for a few years as my break cue. I just wanted to point out that from my limited experience (maybe 50-75 ferrule jobs), that I did have one case of a possibly twisted tenon.

When I get a cue for repair, I replace the ferrule with whatever method was originally used. This way the cue will be as close to original as possible. One thing I am careful to do with all my ferrules is to leave exactly .010 of space between the end of the tenon and the inside of a capped style ferrule. I think this is enough room for the glue yet it is not a ton of space. Since I use a boring bar for the ferrules, I can make the bottom of my hole flat, and make the tenon end flat to match it. This requires a custom fit of each ferrule to the shaft, but I think it is worth the extra effort.

Nick
 
i wonder why some people dont seem to put as much effort into the ferrule joint as they do the "a" joint? why not just slip the handle on also?
is it more important? hmmm....
 
merylane said:
bull puckey.... right on. i think people just want an easier way to do the job.

and whats with the shear strength epoxy? i though cueing was a compresion
force. :confused:

by the way jon that was a nice drawing,i bet it would work nice, maybee a little over kill? but nice.
Click to expand...

Merylane,
Some folks are lazy. I sometimes thread, and or sleeve the tenon. Just because a guy uses a sleeve, this does not make him lazy or nessesarly make it easier. Both take about the same time for me. Cut the tenon, thread it, your done within 2 or 3 minutes, same goes for the pressed on ferrule. I have done thousands both ways. Both are easy for me.

I just don't like stretching the tenon[ long ways, ] or twisting the tenon when making the ferrule tight. If your not carfull, this can happen. It take lots of expreience to do it correctly. Over ther years, I have replace many tenons for guys, because the tenon was weak because of over tighting the ferrule.

A cuemaker who has done this for years knows what to do. Some just talk about it and are cueless, on how to do it, and they form an opinion on what's best, from owning cues, and never built any.

blud
 
iusedtoberich said:
I put this ferrule on, tightened it with a pair of pliers (finger tight), and then clamped it. When the glue cured and I put it in my lathe, the ferrule was noticeably non-concentric with the shaft. I think it was off by maybe .050. I wasn't sure what happened at the time, but now I think that the tenon must have twisted slightly.
Nick
Click to expand...

Nick:
Do you think the tenon twisted or is it possible that the shaft and or ferrule wasn't faced properly. When the shaft is made the tenon is either straight ot it's not straight. If it's not faced properly it can give the illusion that the tenon twisted when in fact it's offset because the surface is not straight with the threads.
 
Hmmm. I thought about that after I posted. I reface the shaft and clean up the theads before replacing the ferrule. And I test fit the ferrule without glue to make sure everything fits well and there are no gaps at the glue line. So if the tennon was crooked compared to the shaft, the new ferrule would not have been flush at the glue line. Of course, there is a certain amoount of slop in the threads, so perhaps what happened is that the ferrule was pulled all the way to one side of the threads on the tenon. This would still give me a good glue line but the ferrule would not be concentric with the shaft. That was the condition I ended up with. I just don't think there is THAT amount of slop in the threads. This was over a year ago...so I don't rememmber everything clearly. But I know if there was a problem with the dry fit, I would not have proceeded with the glue until I corrected it.

I face the ferrule in the same holding setup as the boring and threading operation. That way I'm sure the face of the ferrule is perpendicular to the bore.
 
From what you have posted, I'd say that you've done the best that can be done. As long as you use epoxy to put it on with, I wouldn't ever predict any problems reoccuring.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I put this ferrule on, tightened it with a pair of pliers (finger tight), and then clamped it.

Nick
Click to expand...
Somehow the tightening with the use of pliers bothers me. I only finger tight with rubber band wound around the ferrule to provide the added traction for finger tightening. But that's just me.
 
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