Seeking Input: Archer ‘93 vs. Today
- Thread starter Callaghan
- Start date
what about if johnny grew up in poland alongside wiktor zielinski or if he had the same coaches and came up in taiwan with the ko brothers would he be in today’s top 20?
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Oikawa
Well-known member
Slower cloth I'd argue is easier to run racks on than fast cloth, due to more margin of error on speed control. When people compare the two, they often focus solely on the extreme power shots, but not having a stroke for those on slow cloth cause missed position much less often than over/underrunning your position on faster cloth.
Are you theorizing? I lived through the change from slow to fast. Yes, there is a “too fast,” but that’s the extreme.
Oikawa
Well-known member
I'm talking about the conditions used in most pro tournaments, new slick cloth. When you compare that to the slow cloth, my opinion is that slow cloth is easier overall to run racks, if all other table conditions were the same. But I agree that a worn out, "average" used cloth of today is easier than the slow cloth of the past.
I do not agree with your opinion. Not even close. The easiest example is to watch Efren Reyes in an old match vs Efren Reyes in the 2000's, when modern, standard equipment really had taken root. Night and Day. To new viewers, he looks unbeatable in the 2000's. But he was just as good in the late 80's/early 90's, yet he looks like he struggles in every match when you look at him in those videos. Because he did. He didn't win many tournaments back then. Possibly the greatest cue ball control of any modern professional, and he visibly struggled. It certainly matched my experience. I had my first 3-pack on new Simonis, the first or second time I ever played on it, where I struggled to have a 9-ball break and run on the old, slow cloth in our Student Union once or twice a week. It was so much easier to move the cueball with less effort. That made stroking and pocketing a lot easier.
No way Jose. Your opinion is wayyyyy off base.
Then you should be watching Chua, too. When he's on, power offense is thy name.
When I put new balls and cloth on my new table years ago I was running tons of balls. Now that the same cloth is worn a bit and dirtier I can't come close to that even though I'm a significantly better player now. The balls open up much better on new cloth. I think this is similar to the slow vs fast cloth comparison.
are you saying dennis orcullo, lee van corteza, johann chua, anton raga grew up and developed in these clean, controlled environments with great equipment? if so, i'm really looking forward to your next post
crickets...
The players in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s were definitely more varied and interesting in play style. Also note the end of that era was when the Asian and Euro players started to train for playing pool and started to win tournaments playing a more mechanical style.
However, if you take the top 10 players today with their more precise basic mechanics, they would beat the top 10 players of the 90s. I even asked Archer this directly a bunch of years ago and he agreed. Flashy and fun play style, by nature, makes perfect mechanics harder to achieve. And the freewheeling style of guys like Morris amd McCready can bring about some errors just from not thinking about the shot enough.
However, if you take the top 10 players today with their more precise basic mechanics, they would beat the top 10 players of the 90s. I even asked Archer this directly a bunch of years ago and he agreed. Flashy and fun play style, by nature, makes perfect mechanics harder to achieve. And the freewheeling style of guys like Morris amd McCready can bring about some errors just from not thinking about the shot enough.
They all look the same, stroke the same, waste too much time looking at the next shot the same, it's like watching paint dry. There's no spontaneity. Much too conservative style play. The thrill is gonebaby!!
I see this a lot on AZB. Current players are emotionless robots. They play conservatively and mechanically and are no fun to watch.
How one views the modern game is subjective, of course. But I, personally, do not agree.
Yes, players are more careful and sometimes slower to shoot these days. I'd attribute that to tighter pockets and the deepest, ahem, pool of pro billiard players in history.
It doesn't take much to lose control over a match to a similarly talented opponent and be ousted from a tourney.
The new break shot rules also make matches more unpredictable and limit break and runs.
Nonetheless, I still see plenty of aggressive shotmaking. I see plenty of creativity. I see plenty of different playing styles.
No one would confuse Joshua Filler with Fedor Gorst. Or Gorst with SVB. Or SVB with Jayson Shaw. Or Shaw with Johann Chua. Or Chua with Ko Pin Yi. Or even Ko Pin Yi with his brother, Ko Ping Chung. The Ko's also have different styles.
Nor do I think modern pool is sterile. I've watched a ton of old matches and a ton of new ones. It's just ... different.
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It is possible to say modern players lack character and personality. Aside from Jayson Shaw - as much a character as any pool player ever - there are not many that stand out.
I don't think it is because players actually lack character and personality. I think a lot of them do. Eklent Kaci and Johann Chua immediately come to mind. Lo and behold, I also saw Ko Pin Yi show his personality for the first time ever at Hanoi and Reyes.
It's just that many players have been unwilling to show their personality and character.
One reason is the professionalization of pool. Many young players now grow up in regimented environments. These processes tend to subvert personality when young players are developing. It takes time, as they get older, to develop their personalities and to show them off.
Another cause could be the reserved nature of people in Europe and Asia relative to the Americas. But there's been plenty of characters coming out of both continents. The Philippines is full of characters.
Another cause could be the settings in which they play. They have become very professional, to the point of possibly taming the interaction with the crowd. Which, until MR came along, have generally been pretty small. Many Predator events have lifeless crowds, if you notice them at all.
Players have also come to think that showing emotion might either cause them to lose concentration or be seen as showing up an opponent.
Of course, these same players have no problem jumping on a table after winning a big tournament!
In any case, I do expect this situation to change perceptibly over time, especially if MR succeeds at making its big events even bigger, especially the crowds. Emily Frazer has made it clear she wants more fan involvement and players showing their emotion. Pool has lots of characters, she contends, and she wants the public to see it. Part of the mission at WNT.TV, she said recently, is reveal it.
I don't think it is because players actually lack character and personality. I think a lot of them do. Eklent Kaci and Johann Chua immediately come to mind. Lo and behold, I also saw Ko Pin Yi show his personality for the first time ever at Hanoi and Reyes.
It's just that many players have been unwilling to show their personality and character.
One reason is the professionalization of pool. Many young players now grow up in regimented environments. These processes tend to subvert personality when young players are developing. It takes time, as they get older, to develop their personalities and to show them off.
Another cause could be the reserved nature of people in Europe and Asia relative to the Americas. But there's been plenty of characters coming out of both continents. The Philippines is full of characters.
Another cause could be the settings in which they play. They have become very professional, to the point of possibly taming the interaction with the crowd. Which, until MR came along, have generally been pretty small. Many Predator events have lifeless crowds, if you notice them at all.
Players have also come to think that showing emotion might either cause them to lose concentration or be seen as showing up an opponent.
Of course, these same players have no problem jumping on a table after winning a big tournament!
In any case, I do expect this situation to change perceptibly over time, especially if MR succeeds at making its big events even bigger, especially the crowds. Emily Frazer has made it clear she wants more fan involvement and players showing their emotion. Pool has lots of characters, she contends, and she wants the public to see it. Part of the mission at WNT.TV, she said recently, is reveal it.
There are quite a few players with distinct styles, however the vast majority of 700 and even 800 Fargo rated players have extremely similar mechanics and position play. Because that is the best suited to high level play. Not because they're inherently boring players.
you cant compare modern players to those of old, thinking using modern equipment in modern days.
but you can think about how a modern player would do against those from the past if you put the modern player back in the past under those conditions.
all in all both sides would do fine adapting after a time. that's what top pros do in all sports.
but you can think about how a modern player would do against those from the past if you put the modern player back in the past under those conditions.
all in all both sides would do fine adapting after a time. that's what top pros do in all sports.
The best players are playing today…..no surprise, most disciplines are the same.
Ronnie Allen was watching a one pocket tournament years ago…he said “See the shot that kid played? ….took me ten years to learn that.”
……young players know that shot because of people like Ronnie.
Gambling and hustling created so many of the personalities that may never be seen again….even the money matches now a days are so long, it’s like having a job.
Ronnie Allen was watching a one pocket tournament years ago…he said “See the shot that kid played? ….took me ten years to learn that.”
……young players know that shot because of people like Ronnie.
Gambling and hustling created so many of the personalities that may never be seen again….even the money matches now a days are so long, it’s like having a job.
I played on a lot of old tables where the pockets were buckets, and the slate fall had been filed so every thing fell in…
I felt it was because rooms charged by the game then and the owners wanted them to end quickly.
….all the tight tables I played were shimmed.
whatever you're smoking please send me some.
What exactly are you trying to say?? More word-salad than a Kamala Harris presser.