shaft machine

bubsbug

bubsbug

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a table saw shaft machine that I am tryint to make a new taper templet for. The templet itself is 2" wide, 1/8" thick and is 34 inches long. It rides on a cam follower, and follows the aluminum taper which either lowers or raises. Currently I am trying to find an exact straight line. I have made about 6 templets and the best I have come up with is that one end is .040 larger than the other end when I turn something round. I would like to be dead nuts perfect on both ends. Is this unrealistic. I figure once I get this straight line, I then can use it to get the exact taper that I want. I am tired of manually sanding the shaft after cutting it down. From about 6-13 inches back from the tip end I am sanding way to much to get the pro taper im looking for, and then each shaft is slightly different.

Once people cut it down to slightly oversize do you then take it to another machine to do final dial in, and then finnish sanding. I just know Im working way to hard "Manually" to find my finnish product.
 
Lets say I get my straight line. Now I want my tip end at .515 and the joint at .860 with a 13-15 inch pro taper. I assume the first 13-15 inches will be a straight line, and then taper down .173. Because .860-.515=.345 / 2 = .173. Is this correct.
 
jazzn4444 said:
Is this the same machine you posted before?
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Yes it is. Here are some pics!
 

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Is that just a screw you're using to dial in? Anything else that tells you how much you're cutting off?
 
bubsbug said:
I have made about 6 templets and the best I have come up with is that one end is .040 larger than the other end when I turn something round. I would like to be dead nuts perfect on both ends. Is this unrealistic.
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It bothers me if the difference in diameters at each end of a 20" round I have turned on my lathe is larger than .002. I don't know much about table saw machines or what you have put together, but I have to believe people can get very close on them and do only final sanding on another machine if needed.

Kelly
 
You need to have different templets for shafts and butts. If you are cutting your shafts conical and sanding out the protaper you are asking for trouble. I have mine set up with a tolerance of no more than .001 for the entire legenth of a shaft on the final cut. I make my final pass with .002 -.003 oversize and that is all I need to sand smooth and be ready for finishing. I have spent hours and hours getting the machine up to this point.
I have had several blades with various teeth counts and angles ground. I rebuilt the saw with better bearings, trued all the saw drive pieces shaft, pulleys, blade stabilizers ect... I accurized every part and the saw runs much smoother. The blade runs as close to no runout as I believe is possible. I had to do alot of shimming all over the machine to get everything as true as possible. It has paied off with great results but as I said I have spent a ton of time on it. I will say it has been worth every minute. The quality of a finish cut piece is excelent. There is nearly no sanding to be done. I start with 600 grit on the shaft and work up from there. I showed a shaft to a local cuemaker/friend and I don't think he believes I diddent sand on it some after cutting. They just come out so smooth.
After using saw machines that work so good I never want to go back to a router. If you are going to persue making the lam. shafts you were selling I would suggest you buy a machine that has all the bugs worked out. It will save you alot of trouble and produce a better product. Chris Byrne.
 
Yeah, You should'nt have to sand the taper in unless your doing a retaper on a old shaft that does'nt roll true enough to cut. Sanding should be minimal on a fresh cut shaft. I aggree sounds like you need to have the correct templates cut out. figure your specs out and get with someone that can cut the taper out with a cnc, even that or make the taper bars that are ajustable so you can play with different tapers until you get the one You want. that's one nice thing about chris's taper bar design. they're not fixed, but On shafts Your not stuck with one taper or have a need to have different templates made until you get it right. you can ajust it where You want it. The down fall is it's a softer material, but used with a roller bearing, and good care not to mar it , it can serve a good life span.

Greg
 
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shaft

Two more attempts! I am now down to .013 difference between the two ends. I am also getting small variences in the middle. .010 at the most. Since my tool slides across the table on a cam and has weight, wouldn't something have to give just the slightest to account for the difference. (see example)
My cam goes up and down by turning a bolt. The blade height and cam bolt doesnt have anything to do with getting the straight line that I want or taper. Or does it? Once I get the desired .860/.515 when cam bolt is bottemed out then the blade height is left alone. But If I raise the height of the blade say .010, I then have measurments of .850/.505

Example. If you stuck a 30 foot peice of pipe in a vise where it was completely level, somewhere out around 20 feet you wouldnt be exactly level anymore. Same thing here I would expect, in relation to the tool hanging across the table saw top.
 
bubsbug said:
Two more attempts! I am now down to .013 difference between the two ends. I am also getting small variences in the middle. .010 at the most. Since my tool slides across the table on a cam and has weight, wouldn't something have to give just the slightest to account for the difference. (see example)
My cam goes up and down by turning a bolt. The blade height and cam bolt doesnt have anything to do with getting the straight line that I want or taper. Or does it? Once I get the desired .860/.515 when cam bolt is bottemed out then the blade height is left alone. But If I raise the height of the blade say .010, I then have measurments of .850/.505

Example. If you stuck a 30 foot peice of pipe in a vise where it was completely level, somewhere out around 20 feet you wouldnt be exactly level anymore. Same thing here I would expect, in relation to the tool hanging across the table saw top.
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When I made my first shaft machine on a table saw I put two taper bars on it. One straight edge that could be offset for butts. And one slotted Delrin Shaft Bar like I use on my Deluxe Cue Smith lathes that can be adjusted how ever I wanted. So I did not have to worry that maybe the machinist got something off a few thousandths or the support bar was pefectly straight. I just played with both bars until I got what I wanted and have not touched them in many years.
 
shaft

cueman said:
When I made my first shaft machine on a table saw I put two taper bars on it. One straight edge that could be offset for butts. And one slotted Delrin Shaft Bar like I use on my Deluxe Cue Smith lathes that can be adjusted how ever I wanted. So I did not have to worry that maybe the machinist got something off a few thousandths or the support bar was pefectly straight. I just played with both bars until I got what I wanted and have not touched them in many years.
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I have thought about making mine adjustable. I have now switched to wood templets untill I get what I want. I have thought about making the rear with a sloted hole for slight adjustment, but Im afraid if I do and then move it for what ever reason, then I will never get it back to where it was. This is why I want very spacific taper bars. 2-1/4x20 bolts hold it perfectly in place every time. Im thanking Im going to need many bars. .860 I think is a good number for the joint end but then im going to want 11mm-13mm on the tip end. I think if I make one for 11mm, 11.5mm, 12mm, 12,5mm, 13mm, and maybe one 14 mm all with pro tapers then I should have my pro taper templets completed. Do you think that this is too much.
 
bubsbug said:
I have thought about making mine adjustable. I have now switched to wood templets untill I get what I want. I have thought about making the rear with a sloted hole for slight adjustment, but Im afraid if I do and then move it for what ever reason, then I will never get it back to where it was. This is why I want very spacific taper bars. 2-1/4x20 bolts hold it perfectly in place every time. Im thanking Im going to need many bars. .860 I think is a good number for the joint end but then im going to want 11mm-13mm on the tip end. I think if I make one for 11mm, 11.5mm, 12mm, 12,5mm, 13mm, and maybe one 14 mm all with pro tapers then I should have my pro taper templets completed. Do you think that this is too much.
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Bubs, I think your nuts. Good taper bars are expensive to have made. Mine were 200.00 each 12 years ago. Before spending that kind of money I would be looking into CNC. I had six taper bars made but not for shaft size but for different tapers (Schon, SouthWest, McDermott, Meucci, Joss and my own).
I don't know how your machine is set up for taper bars but on mine I have a .250 pin at the large end of the taper. The taper bar pivots on this pin so that it makes no difference where I position the ferrule end, the joint end stays the same. I have three slots along the bar so that the ferrule end can be pivoted up and down and then locked in place. In this way I can change the ferrule end from 8mm to 25mm and the joint end stays the same which I have set to .850. To get repeatability on the bar I have mounted a Micrometer stem so that I can just dial the setting that I want for that particular shaft and then return to the former position by just loosening the three lock bolts and dialing back to the original number.

This system has worked O.K. for a number of years now but now that CNC is getting so cheap to use I am building myself a CNC controlled one as then I can have 10,000 different tapers if I felt like it with just the push of a button.

If you can't build your own then I would contact Bludworth as I believe he sells one for a little over three grand. That's a lot of money but since you are intending to do this as a business, using fairly expensive materials, Then I wouldn't hesitate in acquiring this piece of equipment. With the price of all of the taper bars your talking about purchasing and the aggravation of changing and setting up each time that you change I feel 3,000 is a bargain.

Dick
 
Bubs, Dick makes a lot of sense.
Bludworth makes some fine equipment that is industrial strength heavy duty.

His cnc taper machine is one I have been considering as a replacement to my Unique Taper/Shaper machine.
 
WilleeCue said:
Bubs, Dick makes a lot of sense.
Bludworth makes some fine equipment that is industrial strength heavy duty.

His cnc taper machine is one I have been considering as a replacement to my Unique Taper/Shaper machine.
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Why not just make your TS cnc?
 
shaft

WilleeCue said:
Bubs, Dick makes a lot of sense.
Bludworth makes some fine equipment that is industrial strength heavy duty.

His cnc taper machine is one I have been considering as a replacement to my Unique Taper/Shaper machine.
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really! To be completely honest I was thinking about getting the Unique taper shaper just this fall. What has you thinking about changing. I spoke with Bludworth about 2 months ago. With shipping and everything it was closer to $3500. Thanks rhncue, you do make good sence. I dont think I am doing this as a business though. To much marketing and hanging out in pool rooms for me. I dont have the time. Much more of a hobby, but wouldnt mind making some pocket change that the wife wouldnt have to know about. Know what I mean.

I finnally did it. I am dead nuts perfect. 1.390 on both ends. I have some run out in the center of .006. Im not going to worry about that. I have started making taper templets out of wood, will see where I end up. The only probem with wood is that if you drop it on the following edge you may dent it and cause an indentation on the shaft. Other than that its perfect. Im not afraid to rip aluminum on the table saw, it just gets hot so darn quick, and I hate out it flakes off everywhere. I protection is a must. ( I know Im sure everyone is shaking there heads right about now, but its all about respect.) Thanks!
 
JoeyInCali said:
Why not just make your TS cnc?
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I would and am. I don't use a table saw per say but a similar design as my machines have the blade built into the machine itself. This is why I recommended to BubsBug to see Blud if he couldn't build the machine himself. Although there is freeware software available you usually get what you pay for and half way decent software can run into more money than Bluds machine set up to go. The machine I'm putting together now will do four shafts or butts at a time. Being a one man shop I really don't need that much speed but it's only costing me around an extra 6 or 700 bucks for the capacity to do four at a time instead of just one. I only make around 150 to 200 shafts a year but each one go's through the shaft machine at least 8 times plus the butts and re-tapers so it won't take long to recoup the initial extra expense.

Dick
 
I have been dreaming about a 6head machine but don't have the time to mess with one. The irony is all the time I could save with it if I had one. Oh well one of these years.
 
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