Shaft type and amount of draw.

Wolven

Wolven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I got some questions regarding type of shaft and amount of DRAW one can induce. Hope someone can give me some answers. Thanks in advance.

What effect does shaft taper have on amount of draw?
Would a stiff shaft allow for less spin than a whippy shaft?
Would a hollow shaft spin less than a normal one?

All assuming same type of tip and stroke.

I?m used to OB-1 and it is very easy to juice it up.
 
Wolven said:
Would a hollow shaft spin less than a normal one?
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A hollowed one would bring localized interia out toward the edge, which is the contact point when applying spin. So it seems that a hollowed shaft would be better in this aspect...but I doubt that it would make a noticable difference.
 
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most will probably reply that that its all in the stroke as to amount of spin you can produce, but thats just not true.

basically, the more a shaft is able to bend at contact with the cueball, the faster it is able to come off the cue ball, meaning shorter contact time.

basically what you get, when the cue tip makes contact with the cue ball the tip grabs on and creates friction. with this friction and cue tip grab, you're loosing spin on the cueball, so the shorter the contact time, the less spin is lost and the more is retained on the cue ball. this is why some shafts appear to be able to spin more than others. i mean granted, the affect is minimul cause we are talking about fractions of seconds, but physics doesnt care about that, its still having an effect.

now back to the question, a whippier shaft just as the name implies bends easier than a stiff shaft, therefore should release and come off the cue ball faster and require less stroke to impart good spin. as such the same goes for the hollowed out LD shafts such as predator or ob1, there is less wood in the front of the cue, therefore it is able to bend more and the same affect applies.
 
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socks said:
most will probably reply that that its all in the stroke as to amount of spin you can produce, but thats just not true.

basically, the more a shaft is able to bend at contact with the cueball, the faster it is able to come off the cue ball, meaning shorter contact time.

basically what you get, when the cue tip makes contact with the cue ball the tip grabs on and creates friction. with this friction and cue tip grab, you're loosing spin on the cueball, so the shorter the contact time, the less spin is lost and the more is retained on the cue ball. this is why some shafts appear to be able to spin more than others. i mean granted, the affect is minimul cause we are talking about fractions of seconds, but physics doesnt care about that, its still having an effect.

now back to the question, a whippier shaft just as the name implies bends easier than a stiff shaft, therefore should release and come off the cue ball faster and require less stroke to impart good spin. as such the same goes for the hollowed out LD shafts such as predator or ob1, there is less wood in the front of the cue, therefore it is able to bend more and the same affect applies.
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That's just not true.

Wolven: for all intents and purposes there is no effect in amount of draw, given the same stroke. However, you should consider that your stroke is NOT the same from one shot to the next. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, and unless you're Corey Deuel or Mike Massey or Larry Nevel, it's safe to say there's always plenty of room for improvement. The shaft you're using is bound to affect your stroke in certain ways. Tip size makes a difference in how accurately you end up putting the tip near the miscue limit on the CB. Shaft deflection will have an effect on shooting accuracy which will have an effect on your confidence which will have an effect on your stroke. The feel of the hit will also affect your confidence and therefore your stroke.

So if I were you I wouldn't be asking which shaft gets more draw for the same stroke. I'd be asking which shaft you will help you get the best results out of yourself.

For me, the predator 314 makes me shoot better. YMMV.

-Andrew
 
I think the most important things here are stroke, tip and the quality of the cloth you're playing on.

If you don't have the stroke, you won't get the draw.
If your tip is crap, or doesn't grab very well, you can have problems getting your draw.
Depending on how the cloth is...

JMO
 
socks said:
most will probably reply that that its all in the stroke as to amount of spin you can produce, but thats just not true.
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Is too. ;-)

basically, the more a shaft is able to bend at contact with the cueball, the faster it is able to come off the cue ball, meaning shorter contact time.
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The contact time can vary over maybe a factor of two from a hard tip to a soft tip. But the shaft flex has no significant effect on the contact time.

basically what you get, when the cue tip makes contact with the cue ball the tip grabs on and creates friction. with this friction and cue tip grab, you're loosing spin on the cueball,
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Quite the opposite, the spin is increasing in proportion to the speed the entire time the tip is in contact with the cueball.

so the shorter the contact time, the less spin is lost and the more is retained on the cue ball.
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The practical answer is no effect of contact time. But looking a llttle more closely, the small effect is the opposite of what you say. A soft tip that contacts longer might start out at a 9 mm offset and end at an 11 mm offset (as the tip rides around on the ball) This gives an average offset of 10 mm, a little further out (more spin) than with a hard tip.
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socks:
most will probably reply that that its all in the stroke as to amount of spin you can produce

[snip the rest of socks' curious opinions]
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This part is at least almost right: I'm pretty sure a large percentage will say the shaft matters (they're wrong), but most of the rest will say it's all in the stroke. However, I think that's emphasizing the wrong thing too. It's really all in how low you can consistently hit the cueball (which is all in the stroke).

pj
chgo
 
socks...I don't know where you got this information, but you're dead wrong! Accurate, repeatable stroke = lots of consistent draw (regardless of equipment...with the exception of dirty cloth and balls)...inconsistent stroke = inconsistent draw...type of shaft = MAKES NO DIFFERENCE...kind of tip = makes no difference...curvature of tip = makes no difference!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

socks said:
most will probably reply that that its all in the stroke as to amount of spin you can produce, but thats just not true.
Click to expand...
 
Great post Andrew...good information and advice! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Andrew Manning said:
Wolven: for all intents and purposes there is no effect in amount of draw, given the same stroke. However, you should consider that your stroke is NOT the same from one shot to the next. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, and unless you're Corey Deuel or Mike Massey or Larry Nevel, it's safe to say there's always plenty of room for improvement. The shaft you're using is bound to affect your stroke in certain ways. Tip size makes a difference in how accurately you end up putting the tip near the miscue limit on the CB. Shaft deflection will have an effect on shooting accuracy which will have an effect on your confidence which will have an effect on your stroke. The feel of the hit will also affect your confidence and therefore your stroke.

So if I were you I wouldn't be asking which shaft gets more draw for the same stroke. I'd be asking which shaft you will help you get the best results out of yourself.

For me, the predator 314 makes me shoot better. YMMV.

-Andrew
Click to expand...
 
socks said:
with this friction and cue tip grab, you're loosing spin on the cueball, so the shorter the contact time, the less spin is lost and the more is retained on the cue ball.
Click to expand...

I would think it's the opposite. The longer the tip remains in contact with the cue ball, the more spin you get. That's why a good stroke usually accelerates through the cue ball, maintaining tip contact for a longer period of time and imparting more spin.
 
id worry more about hitting lots of balls and dont sweat the shaft type. Hit with a cue, if it feels ok its really time to just focus on getting your stroke developed. No amount of changes to your equipment will make as much difference as hitting a few hundred thousand balls. Seriously, with a developed stroke you could use a broom stick with a leather tip and draw whitey.

There are plenty of examples of how it doesnt really matter what the cue is like. Earl and Cuetec come to mind as does Efren playing with a $13 cue from Asia, or how about Mark Tadd recently playing at the DCC with a Budweiser cue. Indian, not the arrow.
 
i do stand alittle correct, as mike pointed out, i did type that backwards, the longer the contact time, the more spin, not the shorter, and the greater flexibility allows for a longer contact not a shorter. (although friction does affect this, theres not enough of a loss to override)

as far as the first statement, i didn't say stroke has "nothing" to do with it, i said stroke doesnt have "everything" to do with it, which it doesnt.

also mike is correct that there are many other factors that will have an effect such as tip hardness bein one of them, thats not what the question was.

my point i was trying to make, in theory, all things being equal, which is what the question was, given the same stroke, the same tip size, shape hardness, etc.. the more flex you have, theoreticly, the more spin will be produced.
 
So if I take a meucci shaft a predator shaft and a schon shaft and lay the same stroke on them say with that predator robot. They will all draw the same. I don't think so, IMO. Shafts do make a difference
 
The longer the tip remains in contact with the cue ball, the more spin you get.
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Yes.

That's why a good stroke usually accelerates through the cue ball, maintaining tip contact for a longer period of time and imparting more spin.
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No. You can't increase the contact time by altering your stroke.

pj
chgo
 
just about a said:
So if I take a meucci shaft a predator shaft and a schon shaft and lay the same stroke on them say with that predator robot. They will all draw the same.
Click to expand...

Yes.

I don't think so, IMO. Shafts do make a difference
Click to expand...

Not in the opinion of anybody who has ever actually tested it.

pj
chgo
 
Scott Lee said:
socks...I don't know where you got this information, but you're dead wrong! Accurate, repeatable stroke = lots of consistent draw (regardless of equipment...with the exception of dirty cloth and balls)...inconsistent stroke = inconsistent draw...type of shaft = MAKES NO DIFFERENCE...kind of tip = makes no difference...curvature of tip = makes no difference!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Are you an instructor?
 
If you have ever had more than one stick in your life you will clearly understand they all hit different and you are telling me the shaft has nothing to do with it?
 
I think he is confused... I'm sure when he has a tip put on his cue he doesn't say, surprise me or maybe even, put on the pretty one. He has one that feels good to him and works better for his game.

If a top player plays with a crappy cue, they will be consistently crappy. You could give some of these guys broomsticks and they could shoot, but they would play a hell of a lot better with a good cue!!!

The cue in question here (hit with a consistent stroke) comes up short compared to a predator 314. 1 1/2 diamonds short on 2 table length draw. On 1 table it comes up about a diamond short.
 
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