Shooting with feel

[drivermaker]

Read the part I made bold. Seems in your raging fury you missed it.

Colin> ~ Waiting patiently for the day DM slips up.

I saw what you made bold and I don't know what you're referring to. What I meant about being so far off base is the fact that I DOplay through FEEL, the only thing I consciously do and it only takes a few milliseconds is AIM. Need I say it one more time for it to sink into your head...AIMING IS VISUAL, you have to SEE that. You DON'T FEEL IT!!

You're going to grow old waiting...I won't slip up because there's nothing to slip up on.

Btw...it's midnight Shanghai time...why aren't you in bed or chasing some China Doll around the bedroom?

 

[Cane]

EVERY high quality player plays with "feel"... but what is "feel". JMO, feel, in any sport or game, is having done something so many times that you just know it. Basketball players shoot by feel? Sure they do... they can use feel because they've practices for several hours every day on fundamentals and mechanics... Quarterbacks don't 'aim' where they throw the ball, they throw it by feel... because they've thrown the ball so many times that their left brain KNOWS how much to lead a receiver. Baseball players don't think of mechanics every time they catch a ball, they do it by "feel"... because they've caught thousands of balls in practice and game situations. The only difference between billiards and other sports/games, is that MANY billiard players don't usually have structured practice. They don't work on their fundamentals daily, like other professional athletes/gamesmen do.

Your left brain remembers EVERY shot you've ever made. It remembers EVERY position play you've ever played. It remembers EVERY safety you've ever executed. It also remembers every shot, position play and safety you've ever missed. Feel, IMO, is nothing more than figuring out how to release that positive information from your brain and let it make the proper decisions for you. Man, it's like walking. We walk by "feel", but when we first learn to walk there is a complicated thought process that we MUST go through to get one foot in front of the other and coordinate our arm swing with that gait to maintain proper balance. Even when we stumble, we "automatically" catch ourselves by shifting our weight or putting one foot out farther or flailing our arms about to regain our balance... is it feel? SURE IT IS? It's action that we've "practiced" throughout our lives so much that it's just become second nature. Feel is NOT MAGIC! It's learned behaviour. Learned, IMO, from systems, or if you don't like that word, from doing something so many times that it becomes second nature.

When I practice pool, I practice using precise systems... when I play pool, I don't think about how to aim a ball, or what kind of spin to use or what speed to use... I've shot the shot so many times that they're second nature and I don't have to think about them anymore... but I learned them through repetitive practice using a "system" or set of systems. When I'm at the practice table, I may think "center to egde, 3 speed stroke, 2 tips high, a half tip inside", but when I'm in a game, I look at the shot and where I want the cue ball and just do it... and I firmly believe that while I can shoot well by "feel" now, I would not have gotten to this point without the implementation of proper systems to engrain all of those scenarios into my brain.

Later,
Bob

 

[pete lafond]

EVERY high quality player plays with "feel"... but what is "feel". JMO, feel, in any sport or game, is having done something so many times that you just know it. Basketball players shoot by feel? Sure they do... they can use feel because they've practices for several hours every day on fundamentals and mechanics... Quarterbacks don't 'aim' where they throw the ball, they throw it by feel... because they've thrown the ball so many times that their left brain KNOWS how much to lead a receiver. Baseball players don't think of mechanics every time they catch a ball, they do it by "feel"... because they've caught thousands of balls in practice and game situations. The only difference between billiards and other sports/games, is that MANY billiard players don't usually have structured practice. They don't work on their fundamentals daily, like other professional athletes/gamesmen do.

A QB does aim, and if he does not aim correctly he misses his target. The feel part is the motion of throwing the ball (how hard, how high, expected receiver position as ball arrives) and the aim part is where the ball is to arrive. This all happens very fast. Aiming for an expert is not, "Let me think were this ball should be thrown, no maybe not there, not there, ah yes right there." instead this stuff happens very fast and is very visual to the player. Aiming happens and the process is so fast that we do not pay attention to it to even recognize it sometimes. When your that good, you just trust your aiming system is working and no need to question it. When it fails, then the awareness to its existence come forward and you try to fix it (calibrate it).

There is no magic, no voodoo and no one is a god. It's all part of what we do and how well we train and practice. Some systems are much better than others, but practice the wrong one (any system that does not allow the complete shot to be visible) and you created your own limitations without a doubt.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I saw what you made bold and I don't know what you're referring to. What I meant about being so far off base is the fact that I DOplay through FEEL, the only thing I consciously do and it only takes a few milliseconds is AIM. Need I say it one more time for it to sink into your head...AIMING IS VISUAL, you have to SEE that. You DON'T FEEL IT!!

You're going to grow old waiting...I won't slip up because there's nothing to slip up on.

Btw...it's midnight Shanghai time...why aren't you in bed or chasing some China Doll around the bedroom?

It's Sunday night, so a workday tomorrow. I've had my two nights on the town, chased but wasn't quick enough

btw: You said it was so far off base it was NOT funny. My meaning was it was so far off base it WAS funny. Get it now? It's a play on words...a game intellectuals play

 

[lewdo26]

I saw what you made bold and I don't know what you're referring to. What I meant about being so far off base is the fact that I DOplay through FEEL, the only thing I consciously do and it only takes a few milliseconds is AIM. Need I say it one more time for it to sink into your head...AIMING IS VISUAL, you have to SEE that. You DON'T FEEL IT!!

You're going to grow old waiting...I won't slip up because there's nothing to slip up on.

Btw...it's midnight Shanghai time...why aren't you in bed or chasing some China Doll around the bedroom?

Why don't we just define the word "feel" and end the semantic battle once and for all, huh? I think when the non-aimers refer to "feel" they mean: "pocketing a ball intuitively; without conscious, careful deliberation."

How's that for "The New Dictionary of Billiards"?

 

[drivermaker]

btw: You said it was so far off base it was NOT funny. My meaning was it was so far off base it WAS funny. Get it now? It's a play on words...a game intellectuals play

Then what are YOU doing trying to play it?

 

[drivermaker]

Why don't we just define the word "feel" and end the semantic battle once and for all, huh?

And destroy the forums for good?


The definition still makes no sense whatsoever unless you carry it into every other facet of the game.

It would be the "intuitive banking system"...the "intuitive kicking system"...the "intutive clock system"...the "intuitive diamond system"...the "intuitive grid or zone system"...

Hell the entire game is intuitive then. Females should be the BEST PLAYERS because there is nothing stronger than a "womans intuition".

And it still boils down to aiming being VISUAL. YOU MUST SEE IT. You don't FEEL it or SENSE it. Maybe hacks do, which is why they're hacks.

 

[Colin Colenso]

In Defense of DM

DM has in the past has been arguing with myself and others over the idea that we cannot aim purely by feel. He has not stated ever, to my knowledge that feel does not play a part in the process, but some of us have assumed he holds this position. He stated his position here quite clearly and I don't believe he has contradicted himself in this matter.

Now I started basically claiming not to have an aiming system and saying that aiming systems were unnecessary. I was thinking particularly about the Hal Houle and Fred Agnir's proposed systems. But DM helped me to realize, that actually, what I was visualizing to aim should also be described as a system. Mine being the best system naturally

Seems to me it is impossible to not adapt some kind of system that involves visualizing points, lines or paths to predict our result. It is sometimes hard to recall what we are aiming at and how we mentally process this visual information to aim. But our eyes are darting back and forth and guiding our aim.

I suspect it is a good idea to focus in on whatever aiming system we are using and analyze its effectiveness on various types of shots and to develop a clearer stucture to our aiming methodolgy.

Colin >~ Humble Pie, taken in moderation is a brain food

 

[drivermaker]

DM has in the past has been arguing with myself and others over the idea that we cannot aim purely by feel. He has not stated ever, to my knowledge that feel does not play a part in the process, but some of us have assumed he holds this position. He stated his position here quite clearly and I don't believe he has contradicted himself in this matter.

Now I started basically claiming not to have an aiming system and saying that aiming systems were unnecessary. I was thinking particularly about the Hal Houle and Fred Agnir's proposed systems. But DM helped me to realize, that actually, what I was visualizing to aim should also be described as a system. Mine being the best system naturally

Seems to me it is impossible to not adapt some kind of system that involves visualizing points, lines or paths to predict our result. It is sometimes hard to recall what we are aiming at and how we mentally process this visual information to aim. But our eyes are darting back and forth and guiding our aim.

I suspect it is a good idea to focus in on whatever aiming system we are using and analyze its effectiveness on various types of shots and to develop a clearer stucture to our aiming methodolgy.

Colin >~ Humble Pie, taken in moderation is a brain food

OK...now I'm suspicious. It's a setup...what's he up to?? LMAO

 

[Colin Colenso]

Then what are YOU doing trying to play it?

I need all the practice I can get!

 

[Colin Colenso]

OK...now I'm suspicious. It's a setup...what's he up to?? LMAO

Just keep following the bread crumbs little birdie!
*evil laughter*

 

[lewdo26]

And destroy the forums for good?

Why all a sudden there is this messiahnic spectre hovering over the forum? I understand certain folks left the board because of all the aimin' and flamin'; but SOME of us are still have some fun, don't forget!

The definition still makes no sense whatsoever unless you carry it into every other facet of the game.

It would be the "intuitive banking system"...the "intuitive kicking system"...the "intutive clock system"...the "intuitive diamond system"...the "intuitive grid or zone system"...

Hell the entire game is intuitive then. Females should be the BEST PLAYERS because there is nothing stronger than a "womans intuition".

And it still boils down to aiming being VISUAL. YOU MUST SEE IT. You don't FEEL it or SENSE it. Maybe hacks do, which is why they're hacks.

DM, a system is by definition not intuitive. Because it's consciously worked out. One can use a system so long it becomes second nature, almost, I understand... But that doesn't make the diamond system INTUITIVE does it??? 2+2=4 is very different than "4 sounds good."

Aiming is visual, but not always conscious. BTW, I'm not one of the "feel" players, FYI. Hell, why would I commit the blunder of playing on the team that's against you on these boards anyways???

 

[Rickw]

I disagree

Pete,

I have been in the zone a couple of times and I can assure you that when I was, I was playing in a way that my alignment and aim was not something that was even thought about. I didn't align or aim with any conscious effort, I did it intuitively or by "feel". I was practicing one day and I got into the zone and everything I shot at went in, 90% cuts, spinning shots on the rail, jump shots, masse's, you name it. For about an hour, I just couldn't miss. I'm not trying to blow my own horn here but I just know that it was one of those automatic pilot type things that was going on. I don't know how else to describe it. The really scary thing about it was, after a while, I got bored and actually had a thought about quitting the game. Is that wierd or what?

Now I know that I needed to learn how to aim, stroke, use english, etc through some structured learning. What I think was going on is that once all that learning had been processed, I just went into a semi-conscious mode that incorporated all that knowledge and I just went into auto pilot.

Feel is important, but feel does not make the shot. Feel will help you get great control over the cue ball though. And it is OK to feel good about how you are shooting. But remember feel is affected by your emotions and is quite fragile.

 

[Rickw]

But everything after that is feel. I would be a terrible teacher/instructor because I could no more explain to someone how I work my way around the table on a rack of balls than how to design a rocket to go into space.
And if I've EVER said otherwise in over 3,000 posts, please show me where.

Nam yo ho rin kio, we are one, mmmmmm. Damn that feels good!!

 

[Rickw]

My wife has what she calls the "feel" method of balancing her checking account. If she "feels" she has some money, she writes a check.

Hey DM, can you spare a dime?

Jeff Livingston

My wife believes that if there are blank checks in the checkbook that there is money in the bank to cover them. I haven't convinced her otherwise in 30 + years.

DM, can you spare another dime?

 

[Rickw]

What did Buddy teach you that helped you develop your feel????

I don't think anyone in their right mind would deny that "feel" has a lot to do with any "eye hand coordination" sport.......However....Let me pose a question....Why do you grip the cue the way you do????? Why would you not put your thumb under the cue and wrap your index finger over the top??? Why would you not keep your thumb on top of the cue instead of letting it go to the side of the cue????

It is possible to develop feel with improper fundamentals, but it seems to me that learning feel with mechanically sound fundamentals (AKA:SYSTEMS) would be a better way to go...

Watch Buddy's stroke. Get an accustat tape of one of his games and watch his stroke. First he aims and then he very slowly practice strokes about 2 or 3 times and then he draws his cue back slowly and pauses, aims and strokes through the cb with a deliberate almost slow stroke. Actually, it's not slow but it looks like it's slow. That whole preparation before he shoots through the cb is developing the aim and feel of the shot. I watched him play 1h in person and his cb control is just phenominal.

 

[pete lafond]

Pete,

I have been in the zone a couple of times and I can assure you that when I was, I was playing in a way that my alignment and aim was not something that was even thought about. I didn't align or aim with any conscious effort, I did it intuitively or by "feel". I was practicing one day and I got into the zone and everything I shot at went in, 90% cuts, spinning shots on the rail, jump shots, masse's, you name it. For about an hour, I just couldn't miss. I'm not trying to blow my own horn here but I just know that it was one of those automatic pilot type things that was going on. I don't know how else to describe it. The really scary thing about it was, after a while, I got bored and actually had a thought about quitting the game. Is that wierd or what?

Now I know that I needed to learn how to aim, stroke, use english, etc through some structured learning. What I think was going on is that once all that learning had been processed, I just went into a semi-conscious mode that incorporated all that knowledge and I just went into auto pilot.

Yes, being in the zone gives you tremendous sense of power. You pick your aim so quickly and so absolutely that you almost do not recognize it. It is a great feeling though isn't it?

 

[Guru]

Females should be the BEST PLAYERS because there is nothing stronger than a "womans intuition".

Doesn't work for pool since nine-tenths of woman's intuition is actually just suspicion.

 

[drivermaker]

Watch Buddy's stroke. Get an accustat tape of one of his games and watch his stroke. First he aaims and then he very slowly practice strokes about 2 or 3 times and then he draws his cue back slowly and pauses, aims and strokes through the cb with a deliberate almost slow stroke. Actually, it's not slow but it looks like it's slow. That whole preparation before he shoots through the cb is developing the aim and feel of the shot. I watched him play 1h in person and his cb control is just phenominal.

What do I keep reading in your post that sticks out like a sore thumb about Buddy? And yes...he does have CB control that is out of this world.
Did he teach you the "CLOCK SYSTEM" for applying english and determining where it'll send the CB based on where it will hit the diamonds?

 

[Rickw]

What do I keep reading in your post that sticks out like a sore thumb about Buddy? And yes...he does have CB control that is out of this world.
Did he teach you the "CLOCK SYSTEM" for applying english and determining where it'll send the CB based on where it will hit the diamonds?

Yes he did show me the clock system. However, I don't think Buddy consciously thinks before he's shooting a shot, "If I use 1:00 it will get me to diamond 2, maybe I should use 2:00 instead because I really want to be at diamond 3." He just knows where to hit the cb to get to diamond 3 without even thinking about it. He developed the clock system to help demonstrate how he does it so that people can learn.

You and I are not really far apart. I've said before that a system is very helpful to learn. Where I think we disagree is that once you learn via a system or systems, and as you get more and more proficient at whatever you're doing, i.e., pool, golf, tennis, whatever, you don't rely on the system anymore, you let yourself go and rely on your feelings that were deveoped by using the aforementioned system or systems.