Short backswing, long follow through?

[sparkle84]

What about high speed shots though?

If you watch some video of Alex you'll see that his backstroke length remains short even on power shots. Accuracy of tip contact on the CB becomes even more important as speed increases. The harder the ball is hit the smaller the pocket becomes. The reason Alex is regarded as a premier shotmaker is in large part due to his ability to strike the CB exactly as needed.
Another good example of this is Mike Dechaine. He's known as a great shotmaker and a power player yet his backstroke length is very similar to Alex.
Whenever I work with someone who has stroke issues these are the guys I tell them to watch.
There are a lot of players out there who think that because they can hit the ball hard and generate a lot of english means they have a good stroke. Most of them progress fairly quickly up to a B level and then get stuck there for years. Primarily because of inaccurate tip contact with the CB.
That and the smoothness of the delivery into the CB is what separates pros from everyone else.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

Tommy Kennedy has a very short back stroke too. Guy has played good for a looong time

 

[Straightpool_99]

I've had a lot of discussions with people about short strokes vs. long strokes and since I play both snooker and pool I get both perspectives on it.

It's actually quite rare to see a true short stroke in snooker (unless we are talking about low level amateurs). The accuracy in position needed just seem to make the short strokes at a disadvantage, especially since you are often stunning the ball into "open space" and cant rely on rails to slow you down, you even have to stun the ball a long distance sometimes, while this is quite rare on the pool table. The common teaching in snooker is to pull back different lengths for different speeds and accellerate the cue through the ball. This works so well, that it's quite rare to see anyone deviate from it (that are at a 100 break standard or even 50 break standard).

On the other hand I see a lot of short strokes in pool, and they do pretty well. I don't think you actually need as smooth a stroke for pool, I mean it's always an advantage, but maybe a bit less of one in pool than in snooker. You don't need orthodox fundamentals to do well in pool at all. I see jabs, swerves, people jacking up their cues on every shot and many of them get out anyway! How I do not know?

I watched a video of Tommy Kennedy now, after someone mentioned him, and I noticed that his cue tip was quite a long distance away from the cue ball on his forward pause. While his backswing was indeed short and accurate, I think there would definitely be a potential improvement to move the tip of the cue closer to the cueball than he does, probably not for him, but for people trying to emulate him, I'd definitely think so. I only mention this to show that there are other sources for inaccuracies than just stroke length in itself. In no way do I want to put down one of the true gentlemen of the game, btw.

I no longer try to shorten my stroke for accuracy, I don't want to fight my "nature" anymore. Instead I try to almost glue my tip to the ball on the forward pause and worked hard on my back-to-forward stroke transition. I think those two things may be a lot more important than stroke length, if your alignment and stroke are at least reasonably straight. If your stroke is terrible, anyway, then shortening it could be a good last resort or even if your stroke is off one day. However I don't think shortening the stroke is a cure-all for stroke problems.

 

[Neil]

I've had a lot of discussions with people about short strokes vs. long strokes and since I play both snooker and pool I get both perspectives on it.

It's actually quite rare to see a true short stroke in snooker (unless we are talking about low level amateurs). The accuracy in position needed just seem to make the short strokes at a disadvantage, especially since you are often stunning the ball into "open space" and cant rely on rails to slow you down, you even have to stun the ball a long distance sometimes, while this is quite rare on the pool table. The common teaching in snooker is to pull back different lengths for different speeds and accellerate the cue through the ball. This works so well, that it's quite rare to see anyone deviate from it (that are at a 100 break standard or even 50 break standard).

On the other hand I see a lot of short strokes in pool, and they do pretty well. I don't think you actually need as smooth a stroke for pool, I mean it's always an advantage, but maybe a bit less of one in pool than in snooker. You don't need orthodox fundamentals to do well in pool at all. I see jabs, swerves, people jacking up their cues on every shot and many of them get out anyway! How I do not know?

I watched a video of Tommy Kennedy now, after someone mentioned him, and I noticed that his cue tip was quite a long distance away from the cue ball on his forward pause. While his backswing was indeed short and accurate, I think there would definitely be a potential improvement to move the tip of the cue closer to the cueball than he does, probably not for him, but for people trying to emulate him, I'd definitely think so. I only mention this to show that there are other sources for inaccuracies than just stroke length in itself. In no way do I want to put down one of the true gentlemen of the game, btw.

I no longer try to shorten my stroke for accuracy, I don't want to fight my "nature" anymore. Instead I try to almost glue my tip to the ball on the forward pause and worked hard on my back-to-forward stroke transition. I think those two things may be a lot more important than stroke length, if your alignment and stroke are at least reasonably straight. If your stroke is terrible, anyway, then shortening it could be a good last resort or even if your stroke is off one day. However I don't think shortening the stroke is a cure-all for stroke problems.

What I have often recommended in the past on here, is to use the short backswing for those shots that require extreme accuracy. For other routine shots, use a normal backswing.

One must always strive to hit the cb accurately. This is a major problem for all but the top pros. One should strive to have a +-1mm accuracy. If you can't hit the cb where you want to, you likewise can't expect the cb to go where you want to.

Another aspect of the short backswing- many tend to tighten up their grip when using a short backswing. DON'T. Keep your grip nice and loose. Tightening it will likely cause the tip to still not be accurate, despite the close distance.

 

[Gorramjayne]

I've had a lot of discussions with people about short strokes vs. long strokes and since I play both snooker and pool I get both perspectives on it.

It's actually quite rare to see a true short stroke in snooker (unless we are talking about low level amateurs). The accuracy in position needed just seem to make the short strokes at a disadvantage, especially since you are often stunning the ball into "open space" and cant rely on rails to slow you down, you even have to stun the ball a long distance sometimes, while this is quite rare on the pool table. The common teaching in snooker is to pull back different lengths for different speeds and accellerate the cue through the ball. This works so well, that it's quite rare to see anyone deviate from it (that are at a 100 break standard or even 50 break standard).

On the other hand I see a lot of short strokes in pool, and they do pretty well. I don't think you actually need as smooth a stroke for pool, I mean it's always an advantage, but maybe a bit less of one in pool than in snooker. You don't need orthodox fundamentals to do well in pool at all. I see jabs, swerves, people jacking up their cues on every shot and many of them get out anyway! How I do not know?

I watched a video of Tommy Kennedy now, after someone mentioned him, and I noticed that his cue tip was quite a long distance away from the cue ball on his forward pause. While his backswing was indeed short and accurate, I think there would definitely be a potential improvement to move the tip of the cue closer to the cueball than he does, probably not for him, but for people trying to emulate him, I'd definitely think so. I only mention this to show that there are other sources for inaccuracies than just stroke length in itself. In no way do I want to put down one of the true gentlemen of the game, btw.

I no longer try to shorten my stroke for accuracy, I don't want to fight my "nature" anymore. Instead I try to almost glue my tip to the ball on the forward pause and worked hard on my back-to-forward stroke transition. I think those two things may be a lot more important than stroke length, if your alignment and stroke are at least reasonably straight. If your stroke is terrible, anyway, then shortening it could be a good last resort or even if your stroke is off one day. However I don't think shortening the stroke is a cure-all for stroke problems.

My experience is that this is somewhat backwards. Snooker strokes are usually more compact than a pool stroke and I think why Alex has the short backswing with long follow through is he is setting up much like he would in snooker, since he has a lot of experience there, but intentionally pushing through the ball more because that tends to help the tip stick into the CB with the heavier pool ball to keep action consistent.

As to whether a long backsswing or a short backswing is more accurate, that really is to do with your fundamentals and to some extent cue weight. If you play a little wristy and loose and like to lift at the end of your backswing (especially with a cue on the heaver end of the spectrum) a little extra backswing can add some stability into your stroke since you're letting gravity and the cue's mass help out your stroke a little.

If you play a much lighter cue with a more technical form, it's not so much that the short backswing itself improves accuracy, but it's that you're also more likely to have a higher elbow, your wrist is likely turned in a bit making it firmer with less play, you have your cue a little bit more under your chest, and all these things make it both undesirable and unnecessary to take a big backswing. A rigidly technical snooker form with your wrist, elbow, and shoulder all in good alignment, lets you put a lot of tension in your muscles and tendons with only a 4-6 inch backswing and a quick but controlled release generates some serious cue speed with a great deal of accuracy. Yes some guys do reach back quite far with the cue when they load up with power but many others do not have to. So it's not just that the short backswing is more accurate or 'less can go wrong', it's that all of the other pieces of the puzzle making up good snooker fundamentals just foster both precision and great cue speed in a compact stroke. If Efren tried to just shorten up his stroke like Alex while adjusting nothing else, it wouldn't work, and if Alex tried a Bustamante stroke while down in a snooker stance, that wouldn't work either. It's hard to make judgments about any one part of a stroke in isolation.

 

[Ak147]

I doubt you can play any of these shots with short backswing, even if you can if won't look as elegant. Enjoy!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku1DiJfiXFo

 

[Gorramjayne]

You absolutely can hit these shots with a short backswing. I was.practicing recovery positoinal shots yesterday with both draw and runthrough powering back through balk and back to land on a tricky black or pink, many times making the CB dance more than what you see in the video. (At one point I drew a small crowd but I think that's more because they'd never seen anybody play snooker at all and not necessarily because of my shooting, but I did fire some 'exposition' shots just to give them something to watch) You really don't need a big backswing to do that.

I'm not trying to be mean when I say this, but he's taking a big backswing because he's too fat to position his arm and shoulder where they should be. You may notice you don't see many hefty pro pool players. That goes triple for pro snooker. Unfortunately because of his bulk he can't get his elbow back and high while keeping the cue under his chest so he has to extend his shoulder away from his body a little bit, drop his elbow, and pronate his forearm, none of which is good for cue speed in a compact stroke.

 

[Straightpool_99]

You absolutely can hit these shots with a short backswing. I was.practicing recovery positoinal shots yesterday with both draw and runthrough powering back through balk and back to land on a tricky black or pink, many times making the CB dance more than what you see in the video. (At one point I drew a small crowd but I think that's more because they'd never seen anybody play snooker at all and not necessarily because of my shooting, but I did fire some 'exposition' shots just to give them something to watch) You really don't need a big backswing to do that.

I'm not trying to be mean when I say this, but he's taking a big backswing because he's too fat to position his arm and shoulder where they should be. You may notice you don't see many hefty pro pool players. That goes triple for pro snooker. Unfortunately because of his bulk he can't get his elbow back and high while keeping the cue under his chest so he has to extend his shoulder away from his body a little bit, drop his elbow, and pronate his forearm, none of which is good for cue speed in a compact stroke.

hahahhahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahah.

The BEST STROKE in the snooker world, EVER. The pros even admit to it. Some may claim it's Hendry, but even they must admit Lee is right at the top. Good luck trying to get a stroke even 30% as good as his. To bad SL is a fat, cheating bastard. That doesn't change the nature of his stroke.

What do you mean by a compact stroke, exactly? Every snooker player has at least 8 inches of backstroke on the power shots, most of them can go to 10, 11 or 12 inches or even longer. Nobody pokes the ball like Alex Pagulayan or Alan Hopkins. It's just not done. Usually the better players have quite a long pullback, even outside the pros.

 

[john coloccia]

When I think of a short stroke, I think of guys like Grady Mathews, that don't necessarily have a short stubby stroke so much as have a stroke just barely long enough to make the shot. This is in contrast to someone like Neil Feijen, who always has a long stroke even on slow shots.

Hopkins and Pagulayan aren't what I personally have in mind.

 

[Gorramjayne]

hahahhahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahah.

The BEST STROKE in the snooker world, EVER. The pros even admit to it. Some may claim it's Hendry, but even they must admit Lee is right at the top. Good luck trying to get a stroke even 30% as good as his. To bad SL is a fat, cheating bastard. That doesn't change the nature of his stroke.

What do you mean by a compact stroke, exactly? Every snooker player has at least 8 inches of backstroke on the power shots, most of them can go to 10, 11 or 12 inches or even longer. Nobody pokes the ball like Alex Pagulayan or Alan Hopkins. It's just not done. Usually the better players have quite a long pullback, even outside the pros.

What I mean by compact is not extending your elbow more than 90-100 degrees. If have good form with a high, still elbow even an 8" pullback won't pull your forearm much past perpendicular, so very little needs to move to get the cue through the ball. I see his back arm almost completely straight at the end of his backswing and it irks the crap out of me. For someone who likes taking big swings his long potting is definitely nothing to brag about.

Hendry has a great form. Neil Robertson despite standing a little awkward has good form and he never even reaches his arm past perpendicular (partly because that giant stork has arms positioned like a lifting crane) and they can get tremendous power without reaching back an inch or two more than their normal stroke and they do it keeping their elbow where it should be. .

How much pullback is normal for you is going to be relative depending on your physical dimensions and stance but I think you should avoid at all costs reaching back like Lee is doing, when your back arm is almost straight at the end of your backswing you're inviting so many things to go wrong.

 

[Gorramjayne]

When I think of a short stroke, I think of guys like Grady Mathews, that don't necessarily have a short stubby stroke so much as have a stroke just barely long enough to make the shot. This is in contrast to someone like Neil Feijen, who always has a long stroke even on slow shots.

Hopkins and Pagulayan aren't what I personally have in mind.

I don't think Feijen's stroke is particularly long for his frame, he's a big guy and he has his elbow very high so even a small amount of movement in his elbow is going to result in 6-8" of pullback. Alex has a height issue so when he stands at the table his elbow is already about as far extended as you want it so it's understandable he doesn't go back too far on his backswing. Chop a few inches off the table legs and Alex's stroke would look perfectly normal.

 

[Ak147]

You absolutely can hit these shots with a short backswing. I was.practicing recovery positoinal shots yesterday with both draw and runthrough powering back through balk and back to land on a tricky black or pink, many times making the CB dance more than what you see in the video. (At one point I drew a small crowd but I think that's more because they'd never seen anybody play snooker at all and not necessarily because of my shooting, but I did fire some 'exposition' shots just to give them something to watch) You really don't need a big backswing to do that.

Can you please record and share when you are practicing power shots next. May be mimic some of the shots from Lee from video with short backswing for comparision. Thx!