Shot-Making: My Response to Drivemaker

[cheesemouse]

Do you remember this...

I guess if it was the first time between the two of us it would be jumping on a poster. But since YOU'VE done it in the past with your wise ass mouth know it all mouth, it's not the case.

I do know what will ripple your pond though...that's YOU hacking golf shots into a number of ponds at one of your local championship courses. I'm sure you've already been on phone with the GC Super. this morning...what's the stimp reading today? LMFAO

Please tell me that you're also a +2....LMFAO even harder than ever.
(All of this in a 4 month golf season...amazing, friggin' amazing)!!

I notice you really do see it my way or was this early post of yours just more BLOWHARD?

What are the most important factors that you should know when playing this game? How smart or intelligent do you have to be to excel at the game? What type of information can interfere with playing excellence?

I've asked these questions many times to myself over the years in striving for improved play and I'm not sure what the answers are. Many moons ago when a was a young feller that had no fear of losing life or limb, I would purposely go into some of the lowest class rooms that you could find in order to get money games. They might be in hicksville USA or on the wrong side of the tracks in a number of towns and cities where it was predominately black. There were quite a few times where I or I and another guy would be the only whites in a black pool room with all kinds of sets of eyes wondering what we were about as players, or what type of crazy f*#ks would come into their territory to begin with. Well, the reasoning behind it was simple...they always gambled and I thought it would be easy pickings to prey on some of the dumbest ass most unintelligent doofus's that could ever be found.

But guess what? Now, just like then, you can still find those rooms and get your ass waxed by some hawk-eyed shootin' SOB that can make balls from anywhere and string racks together like pop-it beads. They know nothing about physics, geometry, never knew what a tangent line was about, but could make a cue ball dance like Fred Astaire.

So, what really is important? I think you have to know how to align, aim, and stroke the cue. I think you have to have a good understanding of english, speed, banks, kicks, throw, squirt (minimal, only that the CB moves sideways a little with certain amounts of english), billiards, and a variety of shots. But I don't think any of it needs to be over intellectualized to the nth degree as many individuals with a higher level of intelligence are so apt to do. I include myself in that category, based on what I've done in school and business, as well as I.Q. testing. However, I feel that a really smart person and player learns all the shots that can be learned and HOW to perform them, not WHY they work through too much physics. This really is a simple game...there's the pocket...here's the CB and OB....make the OB in the pocket and work your way around for the next shot. If you think it requires all of the higher end learning to excel, I invite you to go to an all black room to get a reality check and to get your ass kicked.

Interesting!!!

 

[drivermaker]

I notice you really do see it my way or was this early post of yours just more BLOWHARD?



Interesting!!!

Other than knowing about aiming systems, I don't see where we've ever been too far apart from each other in our thinking or playing style.

Where did I say anything in there that's any different than what I'm saying right now? The answer is...nowhere.

When I went into a room once, I played a black guy that shot lights OUT!! MF'er ran over me like a train and I was playing good!! I quit him...I had to or he would have busted me. He just NEVER missed a shot from anywhere.

We got a little friendly and started bullshitting about the game. I asked him what he did or thought about to make shots. This is his answer..."I USE THE LIGHTS TO AIM BY". That's right...it was his AIMING SYSTEM!! He tried showing it to me and I swear, to this day, I have NEVER been able to figure it out and can see where it works consistently. Go figure.......!!

Btw...I also said back then very clearly..."I think you have to know how to ALIGN, AIM, and STROKE the cue". I've not varied from that statement.

 

[HittMan]

I am the only one who does this but all of the successful things I have tried I have written down on the back of a business card so that when and if I go into a slump I can just pull the card out and see what I am doing different. Half of the things are just basics, but basics nonetheless I have found work best for me. Regards to all, WW

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVER HEARD ANYONE ON THIS FORUM MAKE ANY ATTEMPT TO BRING ON "IN-STROKE" CONSCIOUSLY.
Whitewolf, I have done this for years. I have my process memorized and mine is "just basics" too. I believe 99% of the errors made in pocket billiards are the result of what I call fundamental errors. If I slip up while going through my process I have to go back two steps and work through it again. I can say that if I get to the end of my list two things always happen...never fails... I'm playing lights out and my opponent either runs out of money or quits.
I have tried to introduce this idea several times with little success.
HURRAY!
just my opinion, you be the judge.
Andy

 

[SmoothStroke]

In Stroke

I've really enjoyed this one!!!!!!!!!!
So here's my little piece of wisdom (or whatever).
It seems to me Jude is saying that when he is "in stroke" his unconscious mind works better than his conscious mind. No doubt it does, however Jude seems willing to accept a substantial amount of slippage (he calls them slumps) and appears to be willing to wait for the slumps to get so short that the "in stroke" condition is all that remains.
Drivermaker holds that he (and many others) employs several systems and remains open to new information because he contends that change is constant if improvement is desired. A product of his more lengthy struggle.
Fred (after working thru terms) contends that knowledge of the affective factors will increase his ability to compensate accurately...therefore on less obvious shots a finite system is appropriate.
Then there's some assorted chatter about natural ability, love of the game, australians, learning curve and the placebo effect.
So it seems to me we all agree that when we are "in stroke", we can beat each other. So, where's the the discussion of how to get "in stroke". We've all felt the goodness flow over us...where does it go when we are driving them into the rails (commonly called a case of the goodyears...can't hit nothing but rubber)...because to be considered (internally or externally) a really good pool player requires us to turn in a stellar performance every time we play a match...you can't afford to wait on the elusive "in-stroke" to find you...you must bring it...rain or shine. This is the difference between a pro and a hacker.
I tend to fall in the Agnir camp...for me, I need to understand the possible effects first, then compensate. I use feel, when it works, and try to expand the range of it's working. When it doesn't work, I fall back on systems. I have trained myself to become proficient with several systems that "may" act as a proxy for feel while I struggle to adjust my intuitive powers. This is one of the many reasons I have such respect for he "home table" advantage...one of the competitors will be pre-adjusted. I also match-up differently for longer sets...say 8 ahead as opposed to a race to 8...because the bet should more accurately reflect the ultimate ability of the players due to the increased adjustment time. Match play is a function of measuring breakdowns...short matches penalize smaller breakdowns more heavily.
In the end, we all have different objectives. I don't understand how someone whose objective is excellence could refuse to see the value of either side. And for those of you who come to this/these forums in an effort to play more effectively, the best advice I can offer is to pay close attention to what you are doing when you are "in-stroke" and try to replicate that performance each time you go to the table. Because I belong to the Agnir camp in this discussion, try to utilize repeatable methods so you may have a chance to diagnose problems, on the fly (mid match), and make the appropriate correction. This will likely bear more fruit than waiting on stroke to find you.
Just my opinion, you be the judge.
Andy

In Stroke means in (Dead Concentration) Stroke is built on muscle memory. Practice the strokes and all their variations frequently and you will have confidence in all of the strokes( second nature) Combine Dead Concentration with Muscle Memory and you have a player. Players have all the strokes but are not always in dead concentration. When a top player is struggling he is struggling with concentration not their stroke.The lack of concentration finds it"s way to their stroke, once they start to tighten up thats it, they are done with. On Rare ocassions they are able to get back into dead concentration and make a showing to hold face or even win.You can use all the systems you want but without concentration they may as well go sit, have a burger,, and wonder why they have slumps and slippage.
Trained muscle memory does not disappear it just fades due to lack of mental focus. Players like this Jude kid would fair much better if they learned the strokes and learned how to maintain high concentration levels instead of writing short stories,,, then he won't be amazed he is playing Frankie.,,instead of jumping up and down that he won 3 games he might go into the match thinking he can't lose.

 

[pete lafond]

Things seem to be all over the place with aiming. I believe that there are many parts to the game and when they are all working (in-balance) you play your best game. I think one of the most frequent problems for the player is not seeing the edge of the object ball (straight or not) and the focus is not in front of them to that spot. There is one aspect of pool that men and women do equally well at and that is pocketing balls. J. Lee will practice looking at round objects when she is not at a pool table by picking out certain spots on that round object. This helps her to train her eye.

My opinions
Every system that exists requires that you look at the edge of the object ball (a specific spot), any system that does not is bogus. Whether a player admits to a system or not, everyone finds this spot because without it shots are just not going to drop and consistency will never be achieved. Whether in the zone or not. After all that is the spot we hit on the object ball that gets it to the pocket. So why play games with this? Too much adds complications.

Nothing is better than simple, much easier on the mind. Making a shot is very simple, why complicate it. The more often you find the spot on the object ball to the path to the pocket the easier it becomes. Find it visually, see it on every shot practice or not. Fine tune the spot so that it becomes smaller. No matter how difficult the cut or the distance between object ball and cue ball, this will become 2nd nature and very simple. Balls will drop.

There is stance, grip, bridge, and other basics that help the new player shoot well. They have nothing to do with aiming and you can make shots and become a great shot maker without any of these things being correct.

Also, the cue stroke has nothing to do with the aim however when you pull the trigger, the cue had better place the cue ball in the right path to that point. The reason people miss is not the aiming system if they picked their spot correctly, it is due to a poor stroke. Many missed shots are due to lack of follow through. The result is the player many times start to look for a system that is better. Just dumb. Train your mind to see the spot and work with it over and over and everything else will follow. Pockets are big enough, even shimmed ones so play the center and forget things like throw, this will automatically fall in place. Next. forget how you are stroking the ball. If you put thought in your back hand, feet or anything else it is not possible to stroke straight easily.

Example, if you have two dots on a piece of paper that are 12 inches apart and you need to connect them to form a straight line, what do you do? You set the pen on the first dot and then ALL FOCUS is to the second dot. If not, the line wobbles and looks crappy. Keep practicing this and you will eventually draw a very straight line. Same with your stroke, pay attention to the point on the object ball and forget everything else, just stroke to it - completely to it. Your stroke will be straighter, this also does not need to be complex. Train yourself to quickly find the spot on the OB without dumb gimmicks. Then stroke directly to that spot without thought of hands, body or feet as these thoughts take you away from your focus and you now have wobbly lines.

Next, maybe instead of calling these aiming systems we should instead call them aiming techniques.

 

[TheConArtist]

Does anyone know the site address or link to the aiming technique of the number system. I am curious and wanna check this thing out, i know there are numbers to 9 i think, and you point them to the rails on the sides i think or something like that. Cole.

 

[daytonajoe]

joe tucker

Does anyone know the site address or link to the aiming technique of the number system. I am curious and wanna check this thing out, i know there are numbers to 9 i think, and you point them to the rails on the sides i think or something like that. Cole.

Joe Tucker is the aiming by the numbers guy!!

here is a link http://www.joetucker.net/start.html

click on products and you willl find it


I use this and Hal's system in combination sometimes!

Joe

 

[NewGuy]

AND THAT AIMING SYSTEM IS????

I use the ghost ball aiming method!

Just kidding... I use the Center to Edge aiming method (Hal's system). Like I said in some other threads, it has greatly improved my shot making. Thanks Hal!

 

[TheConArtist]

I use the ghost ball aiming method!

Just kidding... I use the Center to Edge aiming method (Hal's system). Like I said in some other threads, it has greatly improved my shot making. Thanks Hal!

Isn't Sonia Hal,

 

[LastTwo]

In summary

I know that many of you were drawn to the billiard forums because you were looking for a simple answer that would help you move a little faster down this incredible journey we’ve all chosen to take. We are all with opinions on how we got where we are today and we hold on to those opinions to justify how we choose to proceed. In my opinion, many of these systems were devised because it is impossible to sell what is already within you. You already have the tools and the knowledge necessary to jump to the next level. All you have to do is rely on your instincts to carry you there. How can sell that? How can you draw 99 diagrams about it? I’ve been playing this game for over 15 years now and it was only last year when I decided to devote myself to instinct. I’m not going to argue that I have suddenly found the elixir that eludes slumps. I still have them. However, these slumps are much shorter in duration and my streaks are much longer. Prior to my change in thought, I believed I reached a ceiling and could not improve any more. Only now, do I realize my full potential and even though I may never devote myself to a point where I may be a professional one day, I am absolutely certain that if did devote myself, I would be.

You, Drivemaker, are entitled to your opinion. I will not make-fun of you for it. However, understand that I did not haphazardly fall upon this belief and by no means should it be labeled “moronic”. Not only is that unfair, unwarranted and presumptuous, it is insulting because this belief represents a great deal of time, effort and study.

God forbid someone calls you "melodramatic"... Would you write a novel in response??? sheesh

 

[TheConArtist]

I know this thread is almost dead here, but i was talking with a few pool players around here discussing feel on shot making and one of them said if the shots that you make and you say you shoot them by feel, then you would look at nothing but the object ball, but if you look at the cueball then you are using a aiming system or technique, so he said how could you just rely on feel. Cole.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I know this thread is almost dead here, but i was talking with a few pool players around here discussing feel on shot making and one of them said if the shots that you make and you say you shoot them by feel, then you would look at nothing but the object ball, but if you look at the cueball then you are using a aiming system or technique, so he said how could you just rely on feel. Cole.

Seems your friend is a know-it-all goose

Any method, whether it claims purely systematic aiming or feel, need to take in visual information from the CB, OB and target position and the relative angles.

I think a lot of the disagreements here stem from two things.

1. People tend to think their own way is the best.
2. The language we are using with what defines feel and aiming system is not clear among debaters.

All that is clear is that some prefer to trust in their mechanics, and others prefer to allow a more intuitive type of process, such as thinking, a little left, little right, ahh, that looks perfect....whack!

I improved moving from the first to the second after having tried to imagine ghost balls for years. Perhaps the other aiming systems would be more useful to me if I tried them more.

 

[TheConArtist]

Seems your friend is a know-it-all goose

Any method, whether it claims purely systematic aiming or feel, need to take in visual information from the CB, OB and target position and the relative angles.

I think a lot of the disagreements here stem from two things.

1. People tend to think their own way is the best.
2. The language we are using with what defines feel and aiming system is not clear among debaters.

All that is clear is that some prefer to trust in their mechanics, and others prefer to allow a more intuitive type of process, such as thinking, a little left, little right, ahh, that looks perfect....whack!

I improved moving from the first to the second after having tried to imagine ghost balls for years. Perhaps the other aiming systems would be more useful to me if I tried them more.

using the word friend to loosely there, never said he was my friend. All i can say for aiming systems, whatever you use and it works for you and you feel comfortable using it then by all means use it, i change my system everytime i miss a shot, th eystem will work for me for days can't miss a ball maybe its just the zone, but when i miss a ball then i say dammit and change it or come up with my own, perfectionist thing always had it. Cole.

 

[Fred Agnir]

The fact is, this routine is common among any athlete. Rarely do you find a systemized approach to a physical activity.
.

I wanted to bump and highlight this one statement as a launching point, and an exclamation to what Jeff was saying. Though it is rare to find a systemized approach to physical activity at the beginning stages, there aren't many sports in the world that doesn't have a systemized approach or a study of finite mechanical motions, or some method to improve the mechanics of the top players.

Your example of throwing a baseball is a case in point. Every major league pitcher has a pitching coach that watches, and corrects their mechanics. And, much of the corrections make no physical sense as far as the ball is concerned, but it makes sense from a human biomechanics point of view. The corrections could come in vague descriptions like "drop your release point" or " keeps your hands higher on setup" or "your plant need to be deeper." That is, natural feel by the player alone can only go so far. A study of motions and a coach to tell you where to put the body parts are paramount.

My sister is a broadway performer (original cast member of Miss Saigon on Broadway). She teaches workshops for would be professional theater performers. Paraphrasing her, she says:

"Train your instrument. Natural talent can only get you so far. You must get a coach if you want to improve. You can never see yourself as others see you, and therefore you will never know what to improve nor how to improve it."

This holds true for pool as well. Playing by feel and natural ability is fine. But no way can it possibly be as good as having someone study your mechanics and tweak your natural ability. This may include "systems" if the systems helpl to "keep your hands high" or "drop your release point." It's the vitamin in addition to the doctor's advice.

Fred

 

[pete lafond]

My sister is a broadway performer (original cast member of Miss Saigon on Broadway). She teaches workshops for would be professional theater performers. Paraphrasing her, she says:

"Train your instrument. Natural talent can only get you so far. You must get a coach if you want to improve. You can never see yourself as others see you, and therefore you will never know what to improve nor how to improve it."

This holds true for pool as well. Playing by feel and natural ability is fine. But no way can it possibly be as good as having someone study your mechanics and tweak your natural ability. This may include "systems" if the systems helpl to "keep your hands high" or "drop your release point." It's the vitamin in addition to the doctor's advice.

Fred

I would never include actors and actresses as having talent, no need to with technology and retakes. Most of it is who you know.

However, Broadway? I tip my hat to your sister. This stuff is premier. Great points your sister made.

 

[drivermaker]

"Train your instrument. Natural talent can only get you so far. You must get a coach if you want to improve. You can never see yourself as others see you, and therefore you will never know what to improve nor how to improve it."

This holds true for pool as well. Playing by feel and natural ability is fine. But no way can it possibly be as good as having someone study your mechanics and tweak your natural ability. This may include "systems" if the systems helpl to "keep your hands high" or "drop your release point." It's the vitamin in addition to the doctor's advice.

Fred

Apparently Jude doesn't play golf. ALL PGA pros and ALL of their coaches teach them a system for alignment and aiming which they methodically use on EVERY shot, as well as MANY facets of the short and long game.

 

[SmoothStroke]

This may be true some of the time but NOT all the time. Go watch BCN's Johnny Archer playing Jose Parica in the 2004 US Open. He was in a gigantic slump and the reason, IMHO, was that he was lifting up on the shot. Very uncharacteristic of Johnny.

Allison Fisher doesn nothing in practice but practice her fundamentals. It says so on her web site. I am not making this up. Bottom line, even when you are a pro you had better have your fundamentals in order, or in the case of Nick Varner, have the consistency factor going. You can concentrate all you want to but if the physical part of your game is not in order, you are going nowhere.

I agree with you........ Fundamentals and basics go without saying ...usually when a player is having problems with this it is due to mental or physical distraction. It can happen quite easily. If your head is not clear it's a struggle on every shot. When you are over the shot you dont feel comfortable and you know it ( there goes that left brain right brain thing again ) It finds it's way to all the little nerve endings in your body. Reminding yourself to stay down or watch the OB disappear into the pocket is now forced upon you. Not very favorable when all you want to do is focus on pocketing the ball and falling in line with the CB. Weaker players struggle with basics ..stronger players struggle with distraction.