Should I Quit Using Old Fashioned Shafts in Favor of LD Shafts?

K

kollegedave

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dr. Dave does a great video on cue ball deflection. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx4r0NSsxqo

When I watched this video, I could not help but think of Mark Wilson's description of what happens with better "cuemanship" in his drill where he measures the speed at which people stop their ball. If I recall correctly he says that when Efren has the skill to stroke at a softer speed, the pocket essentially gets bigger for Efren, and over time others can't compete.

In a similar way, if a low deflection shaft reduces cue ball squirt by 40%, everyone's hit on the object ball when using a low deflection shaft is increased by 40%! This seems like an unbelievable instant improvement to me.

Please, someone explain why I should not immediately switch to a low deflection shaft!?

kollegedave
 
Financial reasons, maybe. Many switch to LD and love it. Others hate it and give them up fast and some switch to LD for years and eventually go back to standard. It's a mixed bag, but the great majority of pros shoot with LD. That's awfully telling.

I currently shoot standard but I will eventually give LD a shot. Not now...I'm still somewhat new to pool and I notice constant improvement. Once that ceases, I'll give LD a fair shot.
 
give them a shot. You shouldn't immediately switch because, you may not like the feel, or the varying amounts of swerve back towards the shot line when playing softer shots and/or high english.

for some people, it's just natural to have some deflection, and certain shafts with certain pivot points deflect amounts based on the type of english you apply, such as back hand or front hand, or both.

EDIT: I don't think it wise to base a decision on what shaft to use based on what pros use. In a sport with very little to no money to be made, you can be damn sure that any paying sponsorship offer will be taken advantage of.

If anyone thinks Shane or Alex (for example) play better now with their sponsors cues than they did a few years ago with their schons, then I'd love to be proven wrong.
 
Last edited:
Why would you want to do that?

I mean, if you like them and all, no problem. I have a few LD shafts that I use on certain cues.

But, there is no way in heck that I would give up on any decent maple shaft ever.

To me, there is absolutely no trade off in that department.
 
It depends on your goals as a player, but in general it's fine to go either way, there is no big long term advantage to using either type of shaft over the other; they just have different learning curves. Also, keep in mind that some "standard" shafts can be just as low deflection as an "LD" shaft. You should do some test shots to see how much your existing shaft deflects before plopping down the $$$.

If you don't plan on becoming a "shooter", maybe stopping at APA 4 or 5, then perhaps it's not worth buying an LD shaft (a bad way to measure it I admit). If you are already better than that or want to continually get better, you will reach the point where you may want to make the jump.

I don't know what your speed is or your typical preference style of shot-making, but for any player generally going with a LD shaft, it means being able to put off for a while longer learning about how to compensate shaft deflection. However, you will have to learn the in's and out's of deflection no matter which shaft you play with. Even LD shafts deflect, they just deflect less and learning to compensate is just further along your learning path than with a standard shaft.

Why do I say that? Because as you progress in your shooting skills and play more advance shots, you tend to rely on certain shots to get you out of trouble, or to win the game. When you first start playing with right or left English, with a standard shaft, deflection is so minor you may not ever notice any benefit with the LD shaft.

When you get to using a moderate amount of English in a shot (maybe like a tip of English or more), there will be an increase in deflection with standard shafts, causing you to miss certain shots if you haven't learned out to account for the deflection.

This is where you want to have a handle on how to compensate for deflection to avoid those missed shots, though most players aren't aware of this and just miss the occasional shot. An LD shaft can help here, reducing these misses without any calculation on the players part to account for deflection; it's automatically fixed from the players perspective.

But when you get to high-English shots (like two tips), the deflection in LD shafts becomes apparent as well. The LD shafts won't deflect anywhere near what a standard shaft would at this point, but it's still enough where you would need to compensate in most cases. So here is where you still need to know how to handle deflection.

So as I described the above, you can get by longer without dealing with learning deflection with an LD, but it's inevitable that you will need to learn it if you don't want it to be an issue. I described something really contrived of course. You don't limit how much English you use based on your skill level of course. There are all sorts of circumstances where deflection amount varies for any given amount of English too, so extreme English doesn't always mean extreme deflection.

I went with an LD shaft. I already knew how to compensate for my standard shaft, but I had damaged my shaft and needed a new one so I went with an OB Classic as a replacement. My standard shaft was actually a crappy sample of wood, so the OB felt much better. It took about 6 weeks to fully relearn my cue, but it's perfect now. The shaft is great, I love it, but I'll say that every time I go play I end up putting together a shot that requires me to work on compensating for deflection; it's not a get of jail free card.
 
I made the change glad I did but I will say gonna take some time too get used too good luck :thumbup:
 
There is one advantage of a LD shaft that no one seems to mention...OTHER then deflection. Consistency.
If you have a back up shaft, that has same diameter, same taper, same tip and farrel, it will play and feel the same as your primary shaft. Predator, OB, Tiger, McDermott, and other high tech shaft makers all do something that mother nature cannot do..... make a consistent product.

A maple shaft is a great tool. But trying to find two that play the same can be a chore. This is because the grain in the wood is random. No two trees grow the same. This difference in grain structure can be subtle, or intense. How many times have you heard of pros test driving 100 different shafts to find two or three that is to their liking? Yes some fine shafts are made from solid maple. But it can be a crap shoot to find two or three with similar properties.

Another point....radial consistency. Man can do a better job of this by construction techniques. There are many maple shafts that are well made. But again can be a crap shoot. Certain shafts deflect easier in one dirrection then the other. All this is practically eliminated in a high tech....LD shaft.

In a nut shell, forget about deflection....all shafts deflect. Its a matter of how much. Instead, look at the consistency a LD shaft can give you. Maple shafts can be just as good, but sometimes you have to be lucky to purchase a good one. Why? Thats just the way mother nature operates.
 
Last edited:
My buddy only plays with standard maple and plays great. If he
uses LD shaft his game goes down hill.He loves the throw and
has learned it. For myself its the opposite, if I go to solid maple
I'm in trouble once I go outside of center ball.
BTW the comment on Alex and his Schon, he had a Predator
shaft on the end of it when he won the worlds years ago.
 
But trying to find two that play the same can be a chore.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that you can't adjust between your shafts or cues no matter how many you own.


This is because the grain in the wood is random. No two trees grow the same. This difference in grain structure can be subtle, or intense.
Click to expand...

So, that pattern of thinking would be the same as no 2 LD shafts are alike either.

I mean. just because they are cut in a Pie Shape and however OB cuts theirs, they are still made from different pieces of wood.

Meucci Black Dot shafts are 35 pieces of wood, flat laminated together.

Maybe the 8 Pie Shape laminations are from are from 8 different trees and of different ages, grain structure etc.

Put them all together and they still make, One Round Shaft.
 
Last edited:
kollegedave said:
In a similar way, if a low deflection shaft reduces cue ball squirt by 40%, everyone's hit on the object ball when using a low deflection shaft is increased by 40%! This seems like an unbelievable instant improvement to me.

Please, someone explain why I should not immediately switch to a low deflection shaft!?

kollegedave
Click to expand...
Why? Because you're conclusion is flawed. Squirt is only one of three things that happen from using english. And since squirt is a straight and not dependent on speed, it might be the most straight forward of the three to compensate.

If you're already used to compensating for squirt, then you might not get any improvement and you'll find yourself shooting completely different in learning to shoot with a focus on swerve.

Freddie <~~~ IMPE
 
Try some different ones, the feel of some LD shafts is quite different to a regular Maple shaft.
Will it boost your game? Hard to say, but I don`t think it matters that much, you will get used to almost anything.
After spending about two years trying different shafts, I have found the shaft (s) for me.
I use a 30" Mezz WX900 with a soft Zan tip for rotation games and a 30" Mezz Hybrid Alpha with a soft G2 tip for straight pool.
Both shafts are maple shafts, not the laminated style like Predator, Meucci or Tiger, to me that feels the best.
 
Cornerman said:
Why? Because you're conclusion is flawed. Squirt is only one of three things that happen from using english. And since squirt is a straight and not dependent on speed, it might be the most straight forward of the three to compensate.

If you're already used to compensating for squirt, then you might not get any improvement and you'll find yourself shooting completely different in learning to shoot with a focus on swerve.

Freddie <~~~ IMPE
Click to expand...

First, thank you everyone for your comments so far.

Cornerman you make an good point when you point out that there are variables other than squirt to be considered in every shot.

I guess the way I see it (sort of) is that on many shots I am at the center or near the center of the cue ball. As David Sapolis once said somewhere on here, I think the "vertical axis is my friend." That being said, if I can be 40% less accurate and still maybe pocket the object ball, I feel like there has to be a significant advantage there...no?

Full Disclosure: I once tried a Z2 shaft, and I gave it up, because I couldn't get used to it. But as you all can tell from this thread, I am considering another go.

kollegedave
 
:scratchhead:


Just make the damn balls with the shaft you have now.

Don't be blaming the shaft, deflection, throw, or anything else that is an excuse.


Earl won more championships with an old Meucci shaft then any other shaft.:thumbup:
 
Blue Hog ridr said:
Are you saying that you can't adjust between your shafts or cues no matter how many you own.




So, that pattern of thinking would be the same as no 2 LD shafts are alike either.

I mean. just because they are cut in a Pie Shape and however OB cuts theirs, they are still made from different pieces of wood.

Meucci Black Dot shafts are 35 pieces of wood, flat laminated together.

Maybe the 8 Pie Shape laminations are from are from 8 different trees and of different ages, grain structure etc.

Put them all together and they still make, One Round Shaft.
Click to expand...

No. I can't go from one to another without an adjustment period. What I like about LD is I can put on another one and I have no (or little) adjustment. I'm not that good. If I was, I'd be playing pool for a living.

As for the pie piece, maybe OB can chime in here. You are forgetting that when they arrange the pieces, the grain lines are arranged so....not sure how to say this...."they cancel each other out". I'm trying to say there is no one grain line direction, so any "natrual imperfections" of the wood are dampened out by the others? I can't explain it in a different way.
shaft-blank-3.jpeg
This is OB's laminated shaft for example. The grain is arranged in a pattern. Predator does something*similar. From a mechanical engineering standpoint, I would think one could see where this can be assembled with consistency from one shaft to another. Tough to do with maple shafts without a lot of waste product. Now I'm not saying there are not some good (perhaps superior) maple shafts being made. I just can't see where the shafts being made are consistant from one to another. Again the mother nature thing kicks in. No two pieces of wood are alike. But arranging them (pie pieces) so imperfections are cancelled out is something only man can do.

I'm absolutely sure that these companies have a very fine quality control department. They do a good job selecting the proper wood to use. They did on my Predator.
 
poolguy4u said:
:scratchhead:


Just make the damn balls with the shaft you have now.

Don't be blaming the shaft, deflection, throw, or anything else that is an excuse.


Earl won more championships with an old Meucci shaft then any other shaft.:thumbup:
Click to expand...

I thought he broke them all! Lol
 
Just in case I need to change a tip, or if they stop making them......I bought an extra Z-2. I thought the new shaft would play identical to my original, but it doesn't. Its pretty close, but not as close as I had imagined.

As for KollegeDave, perhaps a fatter 314-2 might be an easier transition for you. I realize they don't come cheap. But if you don't like....their resale value is pretty high.
 
kollegedave said:
Dr. Dave does a great video on cue ball deflection. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx4r0NSsxqo

When I watched this video, I could not help but think of Mark Wilson's description of what happens with better "cuemanship" in his drill where he measures the speed at which people stop their ball. If I recall correctly he says that when Efren has the skill to stroke at a softer speed, the pocket essentially gets bigger for Efren, and over time others can't compete.

In a similar way, if a low deflection shaft reduces cue ball squirt by 40%, everyone's hit on the object ball when using a low deflection shaft is increased by 40%! This seems like an unbelievable instant improvement to me.

Please, someone explain why I should not immediately switch to a low deflection shaft!?

kollegedave
Click to expand...

Five factors effect pocketing , Aim, Squirt, swerve, throw (all kinds); and most importantly stroke straightness. Anyone factor adds error rate to any shot, pros shoot hard to eliminate swerve, and have very long bridge to eliminate squirt
throw you have to know how to aim for. Obviously close range shots not a problem, but 4 or five diamonds shots errors starts to multiply. If you feel your aim is 10% good, trust it, and correct other things.
LD shafts helps if your stroke is 100% good, and your style of english is not pivot type (BHE)
 
I think you should just try it, making a thread about it and talking about it for three
or four days isn't going to help show you. Actually using an LD shaft will.

How many people learn how to swim by talking about it ?
Most have to jump in the pool and get wet.
 
Last edited:
I was an LD guy, and to be honest, we have the same discussion in Vietnam also, involving lots of top pros here.

we have agreed that LD shafts help when you start playing pool, they make potting balls easier. but at a higher level, where cue ball control is much much much more important, conventional solid maple shafts are more suitable. the cue ball tends to go exactly where you think they would with a maple shaft.

I don't think LD shafts are more consistent. in fact good maple shafts stay the same for years of play, while LD shafts tend to get weaker the more they are played. this is a fact, if you don't have that problem, you may not play as much with your LD shaft to realize it. the pros here in Vietnam, who play with Pred and Mezz shafts, expect to get new shafts every year or two. I had the same issue with Mezz, played much for more than 1 year and the shaft felt different, weaker, softer.

Some pros here in Vietnam have changed to customs (SW, Tasc, Tad, Mob), and have brushed away Pred and Mezz users, they clearly felt their games have been improved a lot. and that showed also with recent tournament and money games results.

I myself would never play with an LD shaft again.


arps said:
it depends. do you like using deflection on your shots?
Click to expand...

you have a very good point here, I actually found that deflection is useful, as well as throw effect, and so do those pros who switched to customs.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top