Should I start gambling?

P

preacher_eric

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I want to get the forum’s opinion on the subject of gambling. Whether or not you think it's good for our sport, the two are hopelessly entwined. What I really want to know is: do you think gambling can be beneficial to someone who hopes to improve his/her game? The poolroom I prefer to play in is located in Philadelphia (Francisco Bustamante is a frequent visitor when he is stateside for tournaments, and it’s where he did the Billiards Digest cover story “Break Like Bustamante”). The room attracts a large group of regulars, most of who play one-pocket. I love playing one-pocket, and I’m always trying to pick up a game with an older (I’m under thirty) and more experienced player. The problem is that some of the guys in there are turned off and won’t play me, simply because I decline to gamble. If I were to gamble with them, do you think it could help my game? The gambling exploits of many top pro players are well documented. Some even claim their gambling speed is higher than their tournament speed, because the money keeps them sharp. I think I would find it distracting, because I’d be worrying about losing my hard-earned cash. What is your opinion?
 
I have to say it is a slippery slope, but yes gambling is integral to better shooting. It would be nice to manage a high level of play without some measuring stick, however a $$ bet in a pool game is quite a good element for raising or destroying your game (if you cannot handle the pressure).

I have met only a few players who could play world class pool without something on the line. I myself am much more of a tournament player and am not always looking to play for something... however the best stories I hear about my play from other shooters is "... remember when you were down $2,000 in a gambling match and you came back to win..."

Regrettably most people in pool and other areas of life cannot handle the pressure of money managment and risk assessment. In pool this ability is most necessary as it is integral to surviving in a pool environment. A pool hall strips down the essential battles of life and death for many of us (with all due respect to those of you who do like to play for the fun of it)... hence the money and gambling angle represents everything to us. In other avenues of life there exists a wider array of symbols for the life/death struggle.

I guess this is a bit lengthy and dramatic, but I think it is a start to answering your question. If you find it distracting to play for cash... good for you, I hope you avoid the frustration of losing $$ and enjoy the game. For those of us that are not distracted by the cash... I suggest you watch us play and enjoy the action. For me, it is not what I have won, but what I haven't lost.

Jonathan Kurjan
 
Gambling is something you'd do best to avoid. It's like smoking...
before you know what hit you, you become its slave...
and it is harder to stop than to start...
just my opinion..
 
Well put Larry, although I don't have nearly as much experience playing or gambling as Larry, I understand where he is coming from. There are people out there who will try to con you into playing them when they know you don't have a chance, I had this happen to me last week against a guy trying to get me to play some one pocket against him, the funny thing is I play one pocket about once maybe twice a month and this guy (a pretty good player) wanted me to play for $10 a game.

I would much rather put my hard earned dough towards lessons or to pay my way into a tournament. I'm not saying I don't gamble, I do gamble sometimes but I'm very cautious about who I play and how much I play for. The gambling world is easy to get sucked into but I stay away from it for the most part, I find the game more enjoyable if you don't gamble all the time. JMO
 
When you mention the word "gambling", it too often becomes a black and white issue. It is not. We almost automatically think of scenes from movies where hundred dollar bills are flowing like water and losers walk out homeless and penniless. While these do happen, they are not typical of gambling in local pool halls, or anywhere else.

IMHO, whether or not you gamble may have more to do with your competitive personality. I know a lot of guys who are very competitive and always give a 100% regardless what they do. There doesn't have to be anything on the line other than pride--they play all-out just to win, against anybody.

I, on the other hand, seldom play my best unless there is something on the line. I'm not talking about $50 or $100, but usually a race to 7 for $5 or $10. It keeps me involved and makes me work.

You also need to take serious stock of your compulsions. If, as Fast Larry suggests, you can control your losses, you really don't have anything to worry about. It can be as harmless as a Friday night poker game with the guys. But obviously some people do not have that level of control. For those, gambling is a disaster of monumental proportions. I go to Vegas and Atlantic City a couple of times a year and have a ball gambling on a very fixed budget, but I also have a friend who recently declared bankruptcy when her Vegas habit created credit card debts in excess of $100,000.

The bottom line is that only you can make this decision. If you don't like the concept of gambling, don't do it! If you want to gamble, impose a strict discipline on yourself. At the first sign, you cannot maintain that discipline, STOP!

I am often amused by people who denounce gambling but promote playing in tournaments. Tournaments are gambling! It's just that your losses are limited. But, you are still betting money in the hope of winning something more than you invested.

There is nothing about gambling that is black or white, or good or bad. As with most things in life, it is personal choice, making good decisions, and staying within your comfort zone.

Good luck,

1-P
 
In my opinion, Tournaments can be a good judge of how you play against others or how you handle the pressure, but so much relies on the luck of the draw in a tournament. No one player, no matter how good he shoots, has a lock to win in any single race with another person and if you don't get to shoot, then you really never know how you play against that person. You can judge your character and how you handle the loss or win, but its very difficult to see how far you have really progressed. If you play in several tournaments a month, then it can be a good tool to help you learn to play under pressure, but if it is just one a week or a couple a month, it is not the best way to improve under pressure.
It is also very difficult to find someone else who plays well enough to give you a tough game just for fun, unless you know how to put pressure on yourself in a similar way that a tournament puts pressure on you.
It is very difficult to see how far you have progressed without gambling in some way, shape, or form. You should not play for anything more than you are prepared to lose. We used to play for pushups and situps when we didn’t want to lose our money or we were playing against someone that we were not supposed to beat…just something to keep the pressure on you. If you are playing proposition pool...or gambling...then you have an opportunity to continue playing if you want to. It is good to know how you shoot when you are down, or up for that matter. Now this can be a trap, as you can just get deeper and deeper in the hole, but sometimes you get into a hole in a match and you won’t know how to dig yourself out unless you have done it before. I don't recommend that someone starting out jump up and play Busty any $100 one-pocket, unless you know going in that you are going to lose and are doing it for the experience of playing with a champion. There are inexpensive games to be had with any number of people. I guess what I’m saying, is that playing someone cheap races or cheap per game can help you figure out how well you play under pressure. And if you decide to try gambling at the game, then don’t play on your ATM card...only lose what you can afford to lose...and don’t let anyone talk you into a game that is not at least fair to you, unless you are trying to do it for the experience. Gambling can be a good tool, if used in moderation, to give you that pressure that you have to have to really improve your game. I don’t think that it is the bane of pool, or an evil thing to do, but like anything, you have to be strong-minded and be able to do it in moderation to be able to use it as a tool. Just know going in that it is a tool and can be a fun way to judge your progress…but don’t get lost in it.

Good Luck

Chuck
 
Well Preacher, I think you are getting good opinions to your question. The gentlemen responding after my post say pretty much the same message I tried to get across but in much better syntax. They also seem intent on making some deeper points that may also be helpful to you.

Re-reading your original post it seems to me that your approach to the game should be NOT to involve gambling.

Personally I do gamble although I prefer a tournament format. In my geographic area my best practice in between tournaments consists of tough money matches. In 25years of playing for money I have always set strict budget limits and tracked wins/losses. I do not let compliments or criticisms from hustlers affect the amounts I comfortably play for... and when a loss is imminent I take it for what it is and (1) lose gracefully, (2) pay the amount and (3) stop playing a bet I cannot win. And when I win, I enjoy the moment and then move on.

Good luck with your game and play to your inner nature, no one elses philosophy can measure up to your own instincts and self knowledge.

Jonathan
 
There is kinda no way to know if "gambling" will help you or it wont. The only way to find out is do it. Some people can control deal with the excitment and losing. Some people cant. My advice, from someone who gambled a lot, try it a little. If it starts getting the best of you, put your foot down, and never, never try it again.

Some quick rules if someone does try it..

When you walk in the pool room, turn around look at the door, and think about how youll feel if you leave with no money. Be prepared to lose what you brought....

Dont bring more than you cant accept losing.

And I also dont recommend playing on the wire... pay up each game. Taking the money out of your pocket every game is a good way not to let it get away from you.

And MOST IMPORTANT of all, make sure your slick about it. Pool room owners have a lot of money invested and dont need the Cops, ATF, etc. giving them a hard time... or worse.
 
"I think I would find it distracting, because I’d be worrying about losing my hard-earned cash."..............eric, you dont really sound like someone who would be comfortable gambling, so why force yourself to do so?.....if your game is one pocket, it is even tougher to find a no risk game.....3 pool halls where i live and i cannot think of a single one pocket player, from the younger crowd to the retired folk, who would play someone a couple hours of one pocket without betting at least a little something...its just a given that if you play someone, you are wagering at least 5 bucks a game........in my opinion, yes, it is very important to the development of a player to gamble....it steels your nerves and makes you really focus in on the task at hand.....but like other posters say, it can easily get out of hand if you dont use good money management and if you dont have a realistic overview of what you can afford to lose at any given session.......some of the best practice i get is with playing older guys (im under 30 as well) some 5 dollar one pocket because they bear down on you like its for 500.....if you do decide to start wagering eric, just pick and choose the games you play.....from my experience, its best to play with one of the older guys because they are also the ones that like to share their knowledge with someone they see is eager to learn....living in Jersey, i would be much more concerned about going off like a roman candle at the casino than i would be about the lure of a 5 or 10 dollar one pocket game, but thats just me
 
Whether gambling is good for the sport or not is really not an issue worth addressing because it will always be a part of it. It just offers such a great opportunity for people to place wagers that it is futile to try to do anything about.

As for whether it will help to enhance your game or not, I think anytime you put some pressure on yourself to perform, it will raise your level of performance eventually. I think some of the previous posters have been extremely articulate about the benefits/risk ratio. A couple of things I'd like to add are:

1. If you gamble where you live or the same place all the time, you have to realize that the money usually just moves around in a big circle.

2. If you don't know how to match up right, and you lose a lot of money, you will probably begin to hate the game and leave it.

Personally, I love the game to much to risk doing something that may cause me to hate it some day. And, since I'm not able to go on the road and play in different places, I don't see any real profit in gambling. I think you can put that pressure on yourself by just playing tournaments. Tournaments may be a form of gambling but the the big difference is the entry fee doesn't usually escalate like a bet.

Good luck, and I hope you make the right decision for yourself.
 
In my experience, I have found that gambling in pool halls is a completely circular cycle. If you lose a few dollars now and again, you will get it back in another session. This is likely why it is so difficult to make a living gambling at pool. Basically, the amount that you win or lose is the price that the loser pays for the entertainment. Just don't lose more than you are comfortable spending on a few hours of entertainment, and it won't be such a big deal.

~Joe
 
If a person choses to gamble for the excitement and loosing will not effect him financially I see no problem with it. I enjoying playing for small amounts that are not going to matter to me. I am not going to gamble with anyone that I think can not afford to lose. I also try to avoid gambling with people that I do not know.

I see gambling like eating, you can go to McDonalds and enjoy it, or you can go to a dinner theater. It cost more and you may or may not enjoy the show.
 
will gambling improve your game? You will not find a single Filipino player that doesn't gamble. Gambling an addiction? You just have to know when to fold or when to hold them. Poker anyone?
 
If you want to gamble, find a good broker and invest your money in the stock market. Invest in companies that you trust and have a good record such as Microsoft, Wal-Mart, etc. Once you put your money in, don't trade and sell every week. Let it sit...and sit...and sit. Also you might want to put it into a ROTH IRA. The S and P has an average return of 12% I believe over a 20 year period. That is the smartest gamble you can ever make.
As far as pool..do you want to be one of these guys gambling there life savings every week of 5 or 10,000 just to get by...and you are either broke after the set, or you have money to last you another couple of weeks until you get busted.
If you want excitement play in all of the tournaments you can. I won't lie. There are players who I've beaten in tournaments plenty of times, but I wouldn't gamble with them unless I just wanted to give them my hard earned money. I'd rather pay a pro 1 or 2 hundred dollars an hour for quality lessons (which I have) where I can actually learn something much quicker, than lose 2 hundred in 30 minutes at a game that was decidedly against me winning before I ever stepped on the table. You just have to do what is best for you, but gambling is addictive, and I've seen plenty of people addicted to it.
 
Hi Eric, I myself have been a regular at the room you mention. Most of the guys in there are just after your cash, and probably wouldn't even show anything close to their speed if you were playing for cheap stakes. I'm not sure if you know him, but there's a older player in there named Eddie Carr......used to be, he'd play you a buck a game, for coffee, for time, whatever. I've almost never seen him shoot the wrong shot. If there's anyone worth playing in there just for the experience without losing your jellybeans, it's him. Otherwise, I recommend watching the heavyweights in there match up. It doesn't cost anything, and you still get to see what they're doing in certain situations. Also, if you're interested, you can stop in the room I live at (The Green Room in Maple Shade, NJ, no more than 5-10 min. from the Tacony Bridge), and I'll play you for nothing. I'm not as old or experienced as the Tacony players, but I can assure you they've all contributed to my wallet more often than not. The # there is 856-482-2227, and my name is Mike.
 
I concur with Blackjack.

Also, not knowing the routine of it, it is easy to be manipulated by serious gamblers, and some have even gotten beat up or killed.
 
I'd rather pay a pro 1 or 2 hundred dollars an hour for quality lessons (which I have) where I can actually learn something much quicker
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As brilliant as this last post was, I don't think that he was talking about gambling $5k per week with his mortgage money. I think that he was talking about more like $5. Lessons are great, but it is the pressure situations (i.e. tournaments and gambling) in which the results of those lessons manifest themselves in your game.

~Joe
 
Also, not knowing the routine of it, it is easy to be manipulated by serious gamblers, and some have even gotten beat up or killed.
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Are you completely out of touch with reality? This guy is talking about playing $5 sets with the regulars at the local pool hall.
 
Gambling brings out the best of me. So I do it, but not for a lot of money.
If I win, I'm happy. If I lose, I chalk it up to experience but the money lost doesn't affect my finances at all.
I know the evil of gambling. My parents and relatives gambled heavily. So I don't. I gamble just enough so I'd concentrate more on the game.
 
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