Should more 9/10 ball tournaments be played on a "Call shot, Call safe" format?
- Thread starter justinb386
- Start date
Nah, call shot call safe is lame. I thought I'd like it, but it's only good on paper.
The biggest problem with it is, players think it eliminates luck in the game.
But it doesn't, it just eliminates GOOD luck for the shooter,
and creates BAD luck to replace it.
You kick in a ball accidentally, it's not reward, or a neutral situation, it's a penalty for the shooter.
You try to kick in a ball and miss, the guy in the chair has control of the table AND the option.
Instead of the incoming player catching a shitty roll because you missed, YOU now catch the shitty roll.
The luck isn't gone, it's just randomly shifted from one player to the other.
And yes, the removal of the 2-way shot arguably removes skill from the game.
It also works against years of instincts... we all have subconsciously developed the skill
to miss the correct way, to increase the odds of not selling out.
Now that skill works against the shooter, and gives all the power to the guy in the chair.
Why does he deserve extra consideration after you miss?
Ultimately, it's less fun, even if you want to argue it's more fair. Fair is overrated.
Fair is, let's make every race go to 140 games just to be REALLY SAFE.
Fair is, let's all forget rotation and everyone has to play straight pool round robins.
Fair is, let's eliminate the break, open with a safety, and play on 12 foot tables with tiny pockets.
At some point, a player just has to accept that rolls are part of the game,
a tournament is not always about the absolute best player winning every time,
and fun still matters even if you've got an entry fee at stake.
The biggest problem with it is, players think it eliminates luck in the game.
But it doesn't, it just eliminates GOOD luck for the shooter,
and creates BAD luck to replace it.
You kick in a ball accidentally, it's not reward, or a neutral situation, it's a penalty for the shooter.
You try to kick in a ball and miss, the guy in the chair has control of the table AND the option.
Instead of the incoming player catching a shitty roll because you missed, YOU now catch the shitty roll.
The luck isn't gone, it's just randomly shifted from one player to the other.
And yes, the removal of the 2-way shot arguably removes skill from the game.
It also works against years of instincts... we all have subconsciously developed the skill
to miss the correct way, to increase the odds of not selling out.
Now that skill works against the shooter, and gives all the power to the guy in the chair.
Why does he deserve extra consideration after you miss?
Ultimately, it's less fun, even if you want to argue it's more fair. Fair is overrated.
Fair is, let's make every race go to 140 games just to be REALLY SAFE.
Fair is, let's all forget rotation and everyone has to play straight pool round robins.
Fair is, let's eliminate the break, open with a safety, and play on 12 foot tables with tiny pockets.
At some point, a player just has to accept that rolls are part of the game,
a tournament is not always about the absolute best player winning every time,
and fun still matters even if you've got an entry fee at stake.
Call shot call safe with a push out only on a missed shot. Only option is after the push. A good two way shot is only the beginning of a safety battle, not buying a lottery ticket to get ball in hand. A good safety however would still give you that opportunity and not kill the do or die nature of rotation. I would also like to mention that two way shots are the norm when playing one pocket and are an art in and of themselves.
Great post. Invariably it seems after every big event this type of thread pops up because someone's hero was eliminated from the event by "lucky rolls" as perceived by the Hero's fanboys. Get over it, rolls are part of the game.
Wasn't there a tournament that combined the formats? I remember it being 10-ball Call shot/safe, and each player had something like 1 2-way shot per rack.
One thing that Danny D. often says during his commentaries is that if you want to change the game, do it with the interests of the average spectator, not the top players. The top players will want to play 10-ball over 9-ball, they want call shot, can't win on the break, no jump cues, tighter pockets, longer races, etc. Those changes make sense if you want to decrease the chances of upsets, but they also probably make the game less appealing to the average spectator. If you want to make the game more appealing to your average league player or even non-pool-player - and you should, if you want more tournaments, more money in pool, more television, etc. - then your goal shouldn't be to take luck out of the game.
There should probably be a distinction on if one is a veteran player, a fan, or a newbie player.
In my experience, most veteran players are going to move away from luck.
Most fans are just that, fans attending tournaments, so it really doesn't affect them either way if someone gets pooped on in a huge way by some roll. They love the drama that unfolds when crazy stuff starts to happen.
And there is a little of that in all of us.
I'll gladly watch other people getting tortured and suffer at the hands of bad rolls, but the heck if I want to put myself in that situation.
That's why 9ball is a strictly tournament game for me and I basically no longer play it for money. If I'm gonna bet money on a game of pool, the LAST game I want to play is 9ball.
And most newbies just have zero clue yet. When bad rolls have cost them enough money lifetime in pool, they'll come around.
In my experience, most veteran players are going to move away from luck.
Most fans are just that, fans attending tournaments, so it really doesn't affect them either way if someone gets pooped on in a huge way by some roll. They love the drama that unfolds when crazy stuff starts to happen.
And there is a little of that in all of us.
I'll gladly watch other people getting tortured and suffer at the hands of bad rolls, but the heck if I want to put myself in that situation.
That's why 9ball is a strictly tournament game for me and I basically no longer play it for money. If I'm gonna bet money on a game of pool, the LAST game I want to play is 9ball.
And most newbies just have zero clue yet. When bad rolls have cost them enough money lifetime in pool, they'll come around.
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Amen to that.
Any game where the entire thing hinges on sinking one ball is going to have a lot of luck involved. If you really want to make it interesting, you could do something like:
1) player 1 breaks
2) player 1 has the option to shoot or push
3) player 2 can give back a push.
4) whoever has the shot after the break MUST run out to score a point
5) alternate breaks
It's like playing the ghost, except the ghost is your opponent. The push and first shot after that would be exciting, no? I don't think it fixes anything per say (and I'm not sure anything is actually broken), but there are ways to make the game harder and less random without necessarily having to change it.
I haven't played much call shot/call safe, but the few games I have it seemed reasonable. It just ends up being a lot more like 14.1. Instead of just kicking at balls and praying, or getting rewarded for missing difficult shots but leaving someone safe, you actually have to use your head and pass on shots you're not sure you can make. That's all. You just have to change your strategy and play more conservatively. I like watching it, but I suspect most spectators are completely clueless and probably just get confused or bored really quickly...kind of the same sort of thing that killed off 14.1.
1) player 1 breaks
2) player 1 has the option to shoot or push
3) player 2 can give back a push.
4) whoever has the shot after the break MUST run out to score a point
5) alternate breaks
It's like playing the ghost, except the ghost is your opponent. The push and first shot after that would be exciting, no? I don't think it fixes anything per say (and I'm not sure anything is actually broken), but there are ways to make the game harder and less random without necessarily having to change it.
I haven't played much call shot/call safe, but the few games I have it seemed reasonable. It just ends up being a lot more like 14.1. Instead of just kicking at balls and praying, or getting rewarded for missing difficult shots but leaving someone safe, you actually have to use your head and pass on shots you're not sure you can make. That's all. You just have to change your strategy and play more conservatively. I like watching it, but I suspect most spectators are completely clueless and probably just get confused or bored really quickly...kind of the same sort of thing that killed off 14.1.
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