Should professional pool become unisex?
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What a stupid idea. The women got everything going right for them and you want them to screw it up by joining the men?
The women have their tour set. They know they can win $10,000 in one of their tournaments with the added benefit of being on TV. The men wish they had it so good.
And what do the men in the UPA do? They stick their noses in the air and pretend they are primadonas and announce to the fans not to bother them because they are too good to associate with the lowly fans so do not bother them to sign a cueball or a cuecase.
Let them go suck eggs.
Most of them are all past their prime and trying to get by on what they did 20 years ago. They are a dying breed.
Harry is completely right, for the first time, the women know how to treat their fans.
And how many men out there have a higher Accu-Stats record than Allison Fisher's .970? So unless the men can beat that she has nothing to prove.
Jake
The women have their tour set. They know they can win $10,000 in one of their tournaments with the added benefit of being on TV. The men wish they had it so good.
And what do the men in the UPA do? They stick their noses in the air and pretend they are primadonas and announce to the fans not to bother them because they are too good to associate with the lowly fans so do not bother them to sign a cueball or a cuecase.
Let them go suck eggs.
Most of them are all past their prime and trying to get by on what they did 20 years ago. They are a dying breed.
Harry is completely right, for the first time, the women know how to treat their fans.
And how many men out there have a higher Accu-Stats record than Allison Fisher's .970? So unless the men can beat that she has nothing to prove.
Jake
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Boo!
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BazookaJoe said:
Allison said that even if she wins against the men she gets no respect for the quality of her game. She said her experience has been that when men lose to her it has always been that they played badly or some other excuse. Allison stated that she has been threatened and belittled. Anyone who thinks that women cannot play and that they do not want to play the men is deluding themselves.
Mass makes class. More men = a general higher level of players. When women are playing pool in the same numbers then there will be a higher number of world class players who are female.
And I don't know where the 'statistics' come from that 98% of women players can't run two racks in a row but I would venture to say that this is flawed at best. I would say that 98% of men who play pool can't run two racks. I would bet a LOT of money that signifigantly more than 2% of female professional and semi-pro women can and do regularly run more than two racks in a row.
Should pool be unisex? Ideally, yes. It would be great if there were at least one professional sport where sex does not matter. Unortunately it will take another 1000 years or so until we reach that point. Until then the women will continue to get dissed every time they win against the men. There will always be an excuse why the guy lost that has nothing to do with getting their asses beat. Barry Behrman is SO afraid of having a women win the US Open that they are not allowed to play in it. Some Open.
Anyway. JMO - all 2cts worth.
John
^^
Oh please!!! Are you really that naive? The top 25 male pros could give Allison the 5-out and rob her blind!!
Efren offered that english snob the 5-ball, and she refused! Efren could probably give her the rainbow! It wouldn't matter, because she'd never have an open shot!
Listen i'm not a sexist or nothin....but the females arent as good as you all may think they are. Take them off of those huge buckets they play on TV and put them on a bit tighter pockets and they all choke! I've seen it too many times, whenever they got a tour stop at the place I play, none of them can run out! It's ridiculous how bad they sometimes hit the balls when they are playing on TV, and it still falls in the hole! And dont even get me started on how they break!!!
Oh please!!! Are you really that naive? The top 25 male pros could give Allison the 5-out and rob her blind!!
Efren offered that english snob the 5-ball, and she refused! Efren could probably give her the rainbow! It wouldn't matter, because she'd never have an open shot!
Listen i'm not a sexist or nothin....but the females arent as good as you all may think they are. Take them off of those huge buckets they play on TV and put them on a bit tighter pockets and they all choke! I've seen it too many times, whenever they got a tour stop at the place I play, none of them can run out! It's ridiculous how bad they sometimes hit the balls when they are playing on TV, and it still falls in the hole! And dont even get me started on how they break!!!
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LastTwo said:
Um, I don't think so. Just for the sake of clarity we all know that gambling and tournament play are two different things. Maybe you can explain how Karen Corr can consistently get to the top four in the Joss tour against players like Immonnen, whom she has beaten a few times. Maybe you have an explanation as to how she double dips someone like Rempe in the finals. Maybe you could explain how Alison wins against someone like Tommy Kennedy twice to win one of his tournaments. Maybe you could explain how Vivian Villareal beats Corey Duell, I bet he isn't eager to give Vivian the 5-out. Your statement is absurd.
And as for tight pockets - how tight are the pockets on English snooker tables? Why would CJ Wiley state in print that Allison can play jam up - that she ran out four racks on him on a super tight table at his place in Dallas. I bet he isn't eager to give up the five out against her.
I'll tell you what - you will never be able to set this up - but I will put up $10,000 on either Karen or Allison in the following scenario - races to 11 in nine ball with either woman getting the five out against ANY player you can get. Followed by sets of snooker on an English table race to seven. The players shall play five sets of each for $1000 per set. Then we'll see who gets robbed.
You are sexist. You don't get it. The women can play. They can run out. The overall caliber of play is not as high as the men simply because there are not as many women playing seriously. Some women are playing in open tournaments against men and posting better and better results. Do they gamble as well as the men? I doubt it because of the reason I stated above and high stakes pool takes a level of killer instinct that frankly most people of either sex don't possess.
I can just about guarantee you that if Vivian were offered the five out she wouldn't refuse and Efren or anybody else would NOT have to like it.
Cheers.
John
^Shut up, you don't know what you're talking about.
You know, I might just hold you to your 10,000$ wager.
I am willing to bet that Efren can give ANY female professional player, Allison and Karen included the 5 ball, and beat them for any amount of money.
Allison already refused that offer.
lol, this reminds me of something about 3 years ago...
When Santos Sambajon was a no-name, he gave Jennifer Chen the 6-out and the breaks, they played two sets of race to 11 for $2000. Santos barbecued her both sets, 11-5, 11-6. At this time Jennifer Chen was recognized as a top contender on the women's tour, I believe she was number 4 or 5. The funny thing is, all the good players bet on Santos, and all the inexperienced players bet on Chen! The word going around was "How can this no-name professional spot one of the top female pros the 6 out and the breaks??" Plain and simple- like all other female players, with the exception of Thornfeldt, Chen breaks like a sissy.
You know, I might just hold you to your 10,000$ wager.
I am willing to bet that Efren can give ANY female professional player, Allison and Karen included the 5 ball, and beat them for any amount of money.
Allison already refused that offer.
lol, this reminds me of something about 3 years ago...
When Santos Sambajon was a no-name, he gave Jennifer Chen the 6-out and the breaks, they played two sets of race to 11 for $2000. Santos barbecued her both sets, 11-5, 11-6. At this time Jennifer Chen was recognized as a top contender on the women's tour, I believe she was number 4 or 5. The funny thing is, all the good players bet on Santos, and all the inexperienced players bet on Chen! The word going around was "How can this no-name professional spot one of the top female pros the 6 out and the breaks??" Plain and simple- like all other female players, with the exception of Thornfeldt, Chen breaks like a sissy.
And no I'm not sexist, I just speak for myself and every level headed pool player in the world. It's the truth, I didn't make it up, hell, I've met a few female pro's who admit exactly what I'm saying. Either you got beat by a female pro so you worship them now or you can't play worth a crapola yourself.
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LastTwo said:
You know the terms - set up the game. I don't know how long you have been around - you sound like a player - but I have known of Santos for over ten years. But that's not the point.
On any given day in a tournament match any of the top women can beat any of the top men. This is becoming a more common occurrence. Next time I see Efren I am going to ask him if he offered Allison Fisher the 5 out. I don't think he did. I have a friend who beat Efren with the 5-out and I do not think that he plays as strong as Allison does.
So you're right, I don't have a clue what I am talking about so set up the game and you can take my money. BTW - I also heard that Jennifer Chen took down a really good player in Hawaii for $30,000 so she must play good enough. You still didn't answer my questions about the sets that Allison and Karen took off of Immonen(World Champion) and Rempe(World Champion) among other champions that they went through to get to them.
John
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LastTwo said:
You obviously can't comprehend what you read. Of course females will admit that their skill level is not as high as the men's on a general basis. But, AGAIN, for the developmentally challenged, it is BECAUSE there are not nearly as many women playing as there are men. But the disparity is not nearly so great as you would like it to be.
Now, as far as my own skills, you are more than welcome to come down anytime and test them. My name is John Barton and you can find me at 8952 Market Street, Unit 7 in Dover, AR anytime. Bring as much money as you want. And if you are feeling particularly froggy you can give Little Rock player Lisa Marr the five out for whatever you want to bet. LET ME BE REAL CLEAR - WHATEVER YOU CAN SCRAPE TOGETHER YOU CAN BET.
And I have known women who can run a hundred balls in straight pool and can run out in nine ball from everywhere and they don't even play on tour. In my book anyone who can do that is a player regardless of their sex.
John
My only comment is that I agree with John that Sonny Sambajon has been around and known for much longer than 3 years. He has been part of that Filipino contingent; Leonardo Vandam, Efren, Busta, et al for at least ten years now. However, I wouldn't bet again Efren if he gave Allison the 5 either. I don't think a one ball spot matters that much at their level. If I was betting on the lady, I'd want games on the wire and then I'd be nervous! I wouldn't want to bet against Efren, PERIOD!
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I think that we are miscommunicating here as well. I understand some people as saying that Allison and Co. have no chance getting the 5 out, which is the 5,6,7,8 and 9 as money balls. I see some folks writing about them not having a chance with just the five, which would be one money ball besides the nine.
I agree that with just the 5 or the 7 or similar spot that most of the women would have little chance over a long period. But any of them are capable of winning any single set at any random time with or without a spot.
I think that most of the top male pros could beat most of the world giving up a one ball spot. It's all irrelevant though because it's really about getting out when you have the first opportunity to do so. From what I have seen during the last few years - the women are consistently doing so - especially the top five. So when I watch a player play I only look to see if they are getting out when they should and that determines how good they are for me - male or female.
I have watched Efren play many times and I don't understand how anyone can make the statement that so-and-so women player would "never" get a shot when he routinely gives up shots to male players. Does Efren suddenly get all the rolls just because he is playing a woman? I don't think so. I just watched 10 weeks of 2002 US Open matches and I have seen many male pros miss runouts that they should have gotten easily. I have seen them give up plenty of shots. The contention is that the top female pros wouldn't be able to capitalize on those opportunities and run out and I say that is bunk.
Anyway, it's just my opinion because I have been fortunate enough to be around plenty of women who shoot lights out.
John
I agree that with just the 5 or the 7 or similar spot that most of the women would have little chance over a long period. But any of them are capable of winning any single set at any random time with or without a spot.
I think that most of the top male pros could beat most of the world giving up a one ball spot. It's all irrelevant though because it's really about getting out when you have the first opportunity to do so. From what I have seen during the last few years - the women are consistently doing so - especially the top five. So when I watch a player play I only look to see if they are getting out when they should and that determines how good they are for me - male or female.
I have watched Efren play many times and I don't understand how anyone can make the statement that so-and-so women player would "never" get a shot when he routinely gives up shots to male players. Does Efren suddenly get all the rolls just because he is playing a woman? I don't think so. I just watched 10 weeks of 2002 US Open matches and I have seen many male pros miss runouts that they should have gotten easily. I have seen them give up plenty of shots. The contention is that the top female pros wouldn't be able to capitalize on those opportunities and run out and I say that is bunk.
Anyway, it's just my opinion because I have been fortunate enough to be around plenty of women who shoot lights out.
John
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Rickw said:
LOL - I agree. This reminds me of a comment Incardona made on his one pocket tape. He is reciting a litany of champions and the things he learned from them and when he gets to Efren he says, "I learned not to play him."
Take care.
John
Hmm I'm gonna have to agree with Instroke (John) on this one....if I knew you had meant that all the time I wouldn't have argued with you 
I do believe that on any given day, Allison might beat Efren in a tournament. What I actually meant was in the long run. Say Efren and Allison played 5 sets, Efren would by far come out on top, give or take a set or two.
John what I thought you were saying is that Allison plays as good as Efren,which of course is not true.
I believe that all females can reach the skill level of the male players, but I just feel that if they had better competition more often they might just be able to achieve that.
Last Two, I think you are being a little bit too rash, and besides, Santos has been one of the top players from the Phillipines for a long time. When you play at the level where you can run out from anywhere, the spot usually doesn't matter, because your opponent won't get to shoot much. Since you said she got the breaks, I am wondering who racked her balls? If she racked them, I am guessing she can't break, but if someone else racked them, they could have "doctored" the rack, which I've seen happen before. The thought of Chen barely winning any games with the 6 out and the breaks boggles my mind.
I do believe that on any given day, Allison might beat Efren in a tournament. What I actually meant was in the long run. Say Efren and Allison played 5 sets, Efren would by far come out on top, give or take a set or two.
John what I thought you were saying is that Allison plays as good as Efren,which of course is not true.
I believe that all females can reach the skill level of the male players, but I just feel that if they had better competition more often they might just be able to achieve that.
Last Two, I think you are being a little bit too rash, and besides, Santos has been one of the top players from the Phillipines for a long time. When you play at the level where you can run out from anywhere, the spot usually doesn't matter, because your opponent won't get to shoot much. Since you said she got the breaks, I am wondering who racked her balls? If she racked them, I am guessing she can't break, but if someone else racked them, they could have "doctored" the rack, which I've seen happen before. The thought of Chen barely winning any games with the 6 out and the breaks boggles my mind.
Now as for Efren offering Allison the 5 ball, I would definately put my money on Efren, he might lose a few sets but he would come out on top. I see Efren miss all the time on TV, but you gotta understand, even Efren told me this, with those lights blaring, and the crowd watching, it get's hot in there, especially when you are feeling the heat of the game. It's real hard to play your top game when you feel like the whole world is watching you.
When Efren gambles it's a totally different ballpark.
When Efren gambles it's a totally different ballpark.
Ex: Corr vs Kim - U.S. open
Does anyone here think the two tanked shots on the eight and the choke on the nine would have happened in men's pool?
Nerves and emotion took over. Not a killer instinct.
Does anyone here think the two tanked shots on the eight and the choke on the nine would have happened in men's pool?
Nerves and emotion took over. Not a killer instinct.
BazookaJoe said:
Joe, men have nerves and emotion that take over in men's pool as well. Has nothing to do with "killer instinct" (IMO).
Tournament play is completely different, and believe me, if you are playing on a TV table, with bright lights blinding your eyes if you look up, hot heat coming from the lights, audience staring at every move you make, TV cameras and a long boom camera following you around the table as you contemplate your next shot, it can make anybody a little nervous.
Women's pool is much better organized, and the women pool players I have spoken to seem to enjoy the women's tour.
Now, if you are talking about an action game, it's a whole other ball game.
ManlyShot
No doubt in my mind that men get nerveous too. And I can only imagine the pressure of TV play. But, you can literally see the difference in their eyes when they are awaiting the opportunity to shoot. They don't seem to compose themselves like the men do. My most humble opinion as either of these women would take me to school in 9 ball.