Should shortstops be banned from local bar box tourneys?
- Thread starter Poolfiend
- Start date
gpeezy
for sale!
From a business aspect it could cause the tournament to die off due to lose of intrest. Same thing happens here. I just jelly the tournament directors when I win. That will usually keep them off your back.Poolfiend said:
Jealousy plays a role in situations such as this. People get tired of seeing the same ole guy, snapping of the cash. They have to beat him somehow.
Pretty Easy Solution
Make the top player(s) race to 3. Everyone else race to 2.
That would be just enough incentive for the Complaining persons to give it a go. It shows that the bar is listening to the players and doing a little about it.
The other way would be to charge more entry for the top player(s).
Make the top player(s) race to 3. Everyone else race to 2.
That would be just enough incentive for the Complaining persons to give it a go. It shows that the bar is listening to the players and doing a little about it.
The other way would be to charge more entry for the top player(s).
Sounds true, but I can tell you, it is also possible that shortstop wins all of them too.Poolfiend said:
I have been banned from some weeklys and I have run ohers down so long that they stopped happening. I think the shortstop needs to stop playing.
There's no one good answer to this, that all parties will agree to.
Having one guy come in and win a tournament over and over is the surest way to kill that tournament, I think. The rest of the folks will pack it in one at a time.
Barring this one guy from the tournament is the most extreme solution. There are other more moderate steps to take before it comes down to that, like others have mentioned:
1) Make this guy (and anyone else as needed) race to one extra game.
2) Set a rule (for everyone, to be fair) that whoever wins the tournament one week, sits the next week, to mix it up a bit.
3) Make this guy shoot with an enraged ferret down his shorts. Ok, maybe not.
Now, like Easy E said - it's the bar's decision, and that's how that is. They can do what they want with their establishment. If folks don't like it, they can express their opinions with the bar owner, and also, they can vote with their wallets.
When I started playing some little one-game-round (ugh) bar tournaments a couple of years ago, there was a guy who they made race to two. He wasn't shortstop speed, but he was far and away better than anyone else participating. That said, he didn't always win when he showed up - mostly because (IMHO) a) he'd get piss-monkey drunk, and b) had this "I can't lose!" chip on his shoulder, and didn't play as serious as he could, as the rest were just bar bangers. You just never can tell. (I still chuckle that the first time I showed up, I took him down in the finals
)
Having one guy come in and win a tournament over and over is the surest way to kill that tournament, I think. The rest of the folks will pack it in one at a time.
Barring this one guy from the tournament is the most extreme solution. There are other more moderate steps to take before it comes down to that, like others have mentioned:
1) Make this guy (and anyone else as needed) race to one extra game.
2) Set a rule (for everyone, to be fair) that whoever wins the tournament one week, sits the next week, to mix it up a bit.
3) Make this guy shoot with an enraged ferret down his shorts. Ok, maybe not.
Now, like Easy E said - it's the bar's decision, and that's how that is. They can do what they want with their establishment. If folks don't like it, they can express their opinions with the bar owner, and also, they can vote with their wallets.
When I started playing some little one-game-round (ugh) bar tournaments a couple of years ago, there was a guy who they made race to two. He wasn't shortstop speed, but he was far and away better than anyone else participating. That said, he didn't always win when he showed up - mostly because (IMHO) a) he'd get piss-monkey drunk, and b) had this "I can't lose!" chip on his shoulder, and didn't play as serious as he could, as the rest were just bar bangers. You just never can tell. (I still chuckle that the first time I showed up, I took him down in the finals
)
Here in Modesto we have several top top shortstops and none of them are banned from our local tournaments, most of which are a double elimination race to 1. Entry is usually $7 with the bar kicking in $3 a head. Of course there are guys that win more than others but NOBODY can dominate these tournaments, not when there are usually 20 guys that can run a rack at any time. I played for a long time before I started having success in these tournaments, once I did I knew I was doing something. Tinsley Johnson, Mike Mitchell, Paul Juarez, Len Swisher, Danny Cano, Jeff Gayle, Justin Whitehead, Geoff Somer, Noel Campos, Tommy Too Good, the list goes on and on of top players that show up on a regular basis. Under them are probably 25 guys like me that can run multiple racks and often. If you win multiple tournaments in a row around here you are doing something. Part of the reason is that they don't ban anybody, you have to play up to win the money. I bartended for several years at a place called Giovannis and the great weekly tournaments we had there are legendary, good players came from all over the valley and the bay area to play and it attracted alot of lesser players also, people that had little chance to win but when they did they could take pride in the accomplishment..........Marc
poolplayer2093 said:
Bar bangers! That's who.
Not everyone is as serious about pool as we are here on AZ. Not everyone wants to devote tons of time to the game to improve their skills. Maybe they just want to play for something fun to do while they socialize and drink beer and that's OK.These are probably guys who are willing to play people who are a little better than them, but the difference in skill level between a shortstop and the average person you may find playing in a bar is enormous. Just because he has spent a long time practicing doesn't give him a fundamental right to take candy from babies. It's the bar's right to protect their regulars who maybe just want to have some fun competition against the other regulars.
I'm surprised no one liked the switch-handed idea. This would give others a better chance, while still allowing the shortstop to compete and actually improve an area of his game that might not normally receive attention. Otherwise, he's probably not improving jack by shooting fish in a barrel, other than his lunch funds. JMHO.
secretsquirrel said:
This is what we used to do around here. If you win or in some cases win two weeks in a row, your barred for 2 weeks from plying. That way others have a chance to win and the top players don't dominate. And yes he will run off the lesser players if they feel they never have a chance.
Pool is supposed to be a game of skill not luck.
If one player has more skill then he should win every game no matter how many games they race to.
That being said there is an element of luck in the game and the lesser talanted player will win every now and then with a sh*t out shot.
This is what makes it hard to handicap pool players and make it an even game.
Ever hear of the "Crippled Ghost"?
In 9 ball the "AA" or "A" player gets the ball in hand every time he comes to the table.
When the "C" or "D" player comes to the table he only needs to make the next ball (or the next two) to win.
In 8 ball the "C" or "D" player must make one of his balls and then the 8 to win.
If he fails to do so the stronger player comes to the table with ball in hand.
If one player has more skill then he should win every game no matter how many games they race to.
That being said there is an element of luck in the game and the lesser talanted player will win every now and then with a sh*t out shot.
This is what makes it hard to handicap pool players and make it an even game.
Ever hear of the "Crippled Ghost"?
In 9 ball the "AA" or "A" player gets the ball in hand every time he comes to the table.
When the "C" or "D" player comes to the table he only needs to make the next ball (or the next two) to win.
In 8 ball the "C" or "D" player must make one of his balls and then the 8 to win.
If he fails to do so the stronger player comes to the table with ball in hand.
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This has been a good discussion. Seems like both sides of the argument have valid points to consider. I am still on the side that would like to see SVB or Archer or the local shortstop show up every week. I don't care if they win 99% of the time. For ten bucks I get a chance to play against someone where I can learn something and in a race to two I still feel like I have a chance, especially if I win the flip. However, I also don't want the tourney to die out, which is a legitimate concern. The handicapping and sit out a week are good ideas that I will try - maybe just make him give up all the breaks.
FYI - this shortstop took 2nd out of over 2000 in the BCA in Vegas a couple years ago, didn't do very well in Masters division this year though.
Thanks for all the input.
FYI - this shortstop took 2nd out of over 2000 in the BCA in Vegas a couple years ago, didn't do very well in Masters division this year though.
Thanks for all the input.
Poolfiend said:
In a serious pool mis-match, the only thing the lessor player learns, IMO, is not to miss.
I like to play in tournaments with tough fields (SS), but I would argue that you really don't learn anything except how to rack or that you shouldn't miss. What I DO learn is how to make my game reach it's peak, everytime I shoot. Lately, I have realized, unless I am in that max level situation, I get board really fast. (I hope it's just a summer thing.
) I would guess that as your expectations for the level of play you are at are realistic, than who cares if the SS gets to play or not. Most of the complainers are folks who had some illusions of grandeur about their pool game. 
And while no fun to lose, it's not easy on the ego to get flattened.And I also agree that if you scare off the sheep, it's hard to fleece the wolf. "You can shear a sheep many times, but skin him only once."
Bottom line: I came to play pool Fats. Let's play some pool. Get rid of all the other BS.
"Everytime I get to the top of the ladder, I find the bottom rung of the next".
FWIW, ICBW.:thumbup:
Barring someone that is not nationally ranked I think is a mistake. Many people come to these tournaments to see better players. Having handicapped tournys give everyone a fair chance. If someone is repeated winning, it isnt the shortstop's problem; it is the problem of the bar/director who handicapped him. Change it! Whats the big deal? Raise the handicap every time someone wins a tournament 3 times. Yes they will gripe and complain, but at least it doesn't drive off all the bangers who are actually PAYING for the tournament winnings. Everyone should at least have a CHANCE of making to the top 3 or so. (For smaller tournys)
deadstroke7 said:In a serious pool mis-match, the only thing the lessor player learns, IMO, is not to miss.
I like to play in tournaments with tough fields (SS), but I would argue that you really don't learn anything except how to rack or that you shouldn't miss. What I DO learn is how to make my game reach it's peak, everytime I shoot. Lately, I have realized, unless I am in that max level situation, I get board really fast. (I hope it's just a summer thing.
And I also agree that if you scare off the sheep, it's hard to fleece the wolf. "You can shear a sheep many times, but skin him only once."
Bottom line: I came to play pool Fats. Let's play some pool. Get rid of all the other BS.
"Everytime I get to the top of the ladder, I find the bottom rung of the next".
FWIW, ICBW.:thumbup:
I would say that is a pretty important lesson.
Probably the best one to learn.
But I don't think I have ever gleaned any tidbits of knowledge from watching a great player roll over me. It does help open your horizens to how the game can be played.
In thinking about our local tourny, there is no handicap - pay your money and take your chances. I have been dead money almost all the time, but recently have reached the first or second round of the money payouts. I would like to think that I have ratched my game up a notch or two and learned how to play when a miss usually means a loss. Good experience. There is a difference in knowing how to play the game and knowing how the game is played.
But I also KNOW that barring a bout of E. coli in the kitchen, there is probably no way that I will buck the astronomical odds of beating 3 or 4 of the best players en route to winning the tournament. If I am on top of it, and the better players are not; I can usually get one, but not two or three in a row. So --- I guess as long as a player knows their role and is comfortable competing, then why mess with barring players? Keeping things 'even' with handicapping usually bring more trouble than it's worth.
A rising tide floats all boats. Ever notice how good players in an area are surrounded by good players? Competition drives performance and a good player makes those around them elevate their games. A Short-stop, if truely that, can help all players strive to become more proficient at this 'game'.
JMO.
But I don't think I have ever gleaned any tidbits of knowledge from watching a great player roll over me. It does help open your horizens to how the game can be played.
In thinking about our local tourny, there is no handicap - pay your money and take your chances. I have been dead money almost all the time, but recently have reached the first or second round of the money payouts. I would like to think that I have ratched my game up a notch or two and learned how to play when a miss usually means a loss. Good experience. There is a difference in knowing how to play the game and knowing how the game is played.
But I also KNOW that barring a bout of E. coli in the kitchen, there is probably no way that I will buck the astronomical odds of beating 3 or 4 of the best players en route to winning the tournament. If I am on top of it, and the better players are not; I can usually get one, but not two or three in a row. So --- I guess as long as a player knows their role and is comfortable competing, then why mess with barring players? Keeping things 'even' with handicapping usually bring more trouble than it's worth.
A rising tide floats all boats. Ever notice how good players in an area are surrounded by good players? Competition drives performance and a good player makes those around them elevate their games. A Short-stop, if truely that, can help all players strive to become more proficient at this 'game'.
JMO.
For a 5 or 10 dollar entry, race to 1 or 2, I want to play'em all.