Shoulder Screws in Today's Cues

Michael Webb

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Can anyone give a logical answer, WHY! shoulder screws are so popular today. And inserts to for that matter.
Do you think anything is sacrificed in using them? (Hit, Durability, Longevity.)

Do you really think they are stronger than screws that are threaded all the way?
Or just easier to install?

I personally prefer all threaded only.
WHAT"S YOUR THOUGHTS.
 
I have wondered about this topic for a while now BECAUSE,
Not to long ago, one of my customers lost his temper and banged his cue so hard that it bent the screw, almost to a boomerang shape, The thought had occurred that if the screw was a shoulder type, he just might have split the forearm. I tend to think more about the abnormal scenarios than the normal.
But this is enough of a reason that I only use all threaded screws.
I also thought this would be a good discussion for this forum.
 
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Hi Mike,

I believe the guy was just very lucky not to break the cue completely. I don't believe it has anything to do with shape, type or thickness of the pin.

I have seen cues break at the joint when falling down flat on the ground and I've seen cues stay in one piece while being used as "sledgehammers" by players...

Sometimes you just can't tell. But in your example it's pretty clear; It just prooves that the metal of that pin was softer than the wood used for the forearm. That's purely physics. One of the two has to give in such a situation...

Tom
 
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Michael Webb said:
I have wondered about this topic for a while now BECAUSE,
Not to long ago, one of my customers lost his temper and banged his cue so hard that it bent the screw, almost to a boomerang shape, The thought had occurred that if the screw was a shoulder type, he just might have split the forearm. I tend to think more about the abnormal scenarios than the normal.
But this is enough of a reason that I only use all threaded screws.
I also thought this would be a good discussion for this forum.
Click to expand...
Well, the cue wasn't used for its intended function. Luckily that cue had been unknowingly been built to accept a higher lateral force. The pin bending as a product of that force applied had many causes for such. The main reason for which is point of contact where most energy was applied. Secondly was the strength of materials at and surrounding the point of contact.

To answer your question. I prefer all-thread and flat faced. Engineering-wise, it has the most contact surface to address longitudinal forces balanced out with the strongest union to serve its purpose, to keep the butt and shaft together but not ridiculously tight with good resonance transmission. I prefer using 3/8x10tpi, 5/16"x14tpi or 3/8"x9tpi radial for higher resistance to vibration caused joint loosening.

IMO, the shouldered pins are made for ease of cue manufacture (joint pin to but insertion alignment and/or shaft to butt alignment) and use.
 
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Penrose Cues said:
Hi Mike,

I believe the guy was just very lucky not to break the cue completely. I don't believe it has anything to do with shape, type or thickness of the pin.

I have seen cues break at the joint when falling down flat on the ground and I've seen cues stay in one piece while being used as "sledgehammers" by players...

Sometimes you just can't tell. But in your example it's pretty clear; It just prooves that the metal of that pin was softer than the wood used for the forearm. That's purely physics. One of the two has to give in such a situation...

Tom
Click to expand...

Luck, I'll agree with but the screw was stainless.
Bandido,
Tap, Tap.
 
My experience is limited as I've only built a hand full of cues so far. For me, I've had the best luck with the standard 3/8 pin. I've installed several Radial pins and 3/8 x10's with the shoulders and on each one, I've struggled to get the pin spinning true. I'm sure that it's something in my methods but for now I'm going to stick to a more traditional style of pin unless the Radial pin is requested.
 
shoulder screws

I personnally like the shoulder screws a lot better and the shouldered inserts for that matter. I find it puts the pin in perfectly every time. It's definately important to make the bore for the shoulder the correct size or it opens up the door for big problems.
I have used the all threaded style in the past and had OK results. Those pins are generally rolled instead of single pointed so are generally not as straight and not as well made.
They are worth the extra few dollars in my opinion.
(lots more dollars in the case of the radials)

Mike
 
The only advantage I can see is ease of getting the pin in perfect compared to full threaded pins. I agree with all negatives mentioned, so I use full thread pins myself.
 
shoulders and piloted pins

Threads aren't designed to align things laterally or handle shearing load. There should be minimum shearing load on a pin in normal use but that still leaves the alignment issue both when the pin and joint is new and many years down the line.

As a newcomer to cue building, I haven't settled on "my" pin yet. However from working in other areas I know that the ideal alignment is with both ends of the pin going into the insert/shaft piloted and the threads in the center. Some inclination to angle one piloted area or the other but as I mentioned, no decision as yet. I may not even have two aligning areas.

Hu
 
Pancerny said:
I personnally like the shoulder screws a lot better and the shouldered inserts for that matter. I find it puts the pin in perfectly every time. It's definately important to make the bore for the shoulder the correct size or it opens up the door for big problems.
I have used the all threaded style in the past and had OK results. Those pins are generally rolled instead of single pointed so are generally not as straight and not as well made.
They are worth the extra few dollars in my opinion.
(lots more dollars in the case of the radials)
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this. It's about precision, and the ability to get it easily.
 
I don't know about the precision part, I have 3/8X10, Radial, 5/16X14 and 3/8X11 and I have no problem at all putting them in. But I also like to run the cue between centers and give a little tap before the epoxy sets up to insure it is straight. This part is much easier without the shoulder.
 
Michael Webb said:
Can anyone give a logical answer, WHY! shoulder screws are so popular today. And inserts to for that matter.
Do you think anything is sacrificed in using them? (Hit, Durability, Longevity.)

Do you really think they are stronger than screws that are threaded all the way?
Or just easier to install?

I personally prefer all threaded only.
WHAT"S YOUR THOUGHTS.
Click to expand...

In my opinion I believe most cuemakers use full threaded pins because they are cheap!

From Atlas one 5/16-18 fully theaded pin cost $1.75 each. One Radial Pin cost $15.40 each.

If you are building 100 cues it cost $175.00 to put in the pins with the 5/16-18. With the Radial Pin it cost $1540.00.

You get what you pay for. Radial pins are straight, precise and accurate.

Nothing straight, precise or accurate about full threaded pins.

You get what you pay for.
 
Arnot Wadsworth said:
In my opinion I believe most cuemakers use full threaded pins because they are cheap!

From Atlas one 5/16-18 fully theaded pin cost $1.75 each. One Radial Pin cost $15.40 each.

If you are building 100 cues it cost $175.00 to put in the pins with the 5/16-18. With the Radial Pin it cost $1540.00.

You get what you pay for. Radial pins are straight, precise and accurate.

Nothing straight, precise or accurate about full threaded pins.

You get what you pay for.
Click to expand...

That's an interesting philosophy, to bad it had nothing to do with the question.
I suppose Gina cues, Joss, Black Boar, Paul Mottey, Paul Fanelli, Skip Weston, Myself, Bill Webb, Tad, Ernie Martinez, Southwest, Richard Black, James White, Blud, Paul Dayton, Joel Hercek and I could think of atleast a dozen more offer different pins at the joint because they don't know anything about building precision cues.
Sorry, just a smart ass answer to go along with your post.
 
PHASE II, to this scenario.
Does your "A" joint have a shoulder screw, "IF NOT", WHY NOT if you beleive in the precision of the shoulder so much.
I am not trying to pick arguments, this is actually good stuff for this forum.
 
A little info for those who don't know, the first Radials I ever bought from Uni Loc had no solid shank as part of the design and they were perfect.
 
Michael Webb said:
Can anyone give a logical answer, WHY! shoulder screws are so popular today. And inserts to for that matter.
Click to expand...
Wasn't the original design intent to make the installation more accurate? Personally, I favor the shouldered pins for that reason at least.

Do you think anything is sacrificed in using them? (Hit, Durability, Longevity.)
Click to expand...
"Hit" is too subjective, but as to durability, my personal opinion is that they are at least as durable and probably more so. I tried to bend a Radial (held in a vise), & couldn't do it. "Longevity": Under normal use, why wouldn't they last as long as any other?

Do you really think they are stronger than screws that are threaded all the way?
Click to expand...
Yes, I do.
Or just easier to install?
Click to expand...
Definitely easier to install. I just wish they were a little less expensive.

WHAT"S YOUR THOUGHTS.
Click to expand...
Mine for what their worth.

I'm just happy we all have options. It would be pretty boring if we didn't. Is a 5/16x14 shouldered pin being manufactured?
 
Michael Webb said:
A little info for those who don't know, the first Radials I ever bought from Uni Loc had no solid shank as part of the design and they were perfect.
Click to expand...
Was a tap with the lead also available then? I've only used the Radial since 1998 (approx).
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
Was a tap with the lead also available then? I've only used the Radial since 1998 (approx).
Click to expand...

Yes Sir it was offered then. Paul Costane is a pretty smart cookie.
 
Michael Webb said:
Yes Sir it was offered then. Paul Costane is a pretty smart cookie.
Click to expand...
I agree. Just wish he/they would go back to making the maintenance kit from metal rather than the female being plastic.
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
I agree. Just wish he/they would go back to making the maintenance kit from metal rather than the female being plastic.
Click to expand...
Do you mean the mandrel or just the female for turning butts to work on them. I made the I.D. of mine out of phenolic, never had any problems. Metal to metal has a concern, if it ever seizes, you'll go through hell trying to release it and there's still a chance you would ruin the pin if you did get it apart.
I know of certain cue makers that have their carbide mandrels with all metal bodies because they use a pole sander but their is still a concern.
 
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