Side spin does not transfer

[vapoolplayer]

can someone tell me why it really matters???

you have shot you need to make, and you have a position you need to attain........do it.

if it transfers spin or if it just twists.......you make the shot and get position.

why argue? just seems like to much over analyzing on the computer and not enough playing on the table.

VAP

 

[pete lafond]

I'm just a dumb ass but I think there is some confusion between the throw effect that is put on the ob with cb sidespin and if spin is actually put on the ball. My opinion is that there is a little side spin put on the ball with extreme cue ball english but it is not much. The bank demonstration proves that it can happen. but most of what is happening is the throw from the collision having an effect on the object ball. I think it would be impossible to hit the cue ball with right spin and not have it transfer a minute amount of spin on the object ball, not enough effect it majorly but enough to effect how it then comes off another ball or a rail.....JMO

You are correct about the curve that takes place with side spin which is what puts side spin on the OB. This is why when testing it is important to not allow the curve to affect this shot to prove this point.

What happens with side spin is that the combination of the spin plus the friction of the felt in front of the OB ball causes the OB to twist. The OB gets thrown forward with this twist which now has top right or top left English spin on it.

This is why banks occur as they do and this knowledge is important to know as a banker. Top right spin on the OB will cause it to travel to the right. If the OB had side spin, a bank with left English used would cause the OB to travel to an extreme right and hard to control. Fortunately it is friction that tames this down (or the twists that occurs making this manageable.

 

[Andrew Manning]

I'm just a dumb ass but I think there is some confusion between the throw effect that is put on the ob with cb sidespin and if spin is actually put on the ball. My opinion is that there is a little side spin put on the ball with extreme cue ball english but it is not much. The bank demonstration proves that it can happen. but most of what is happening is the throw from the collision having an effect on the object ball. I think it would be impossible to hit the cue ball with right spin and not have it transfer a minute amount of spin on the object ball, not enough effect it majorly but enough to effect how it then comes off another ball or a rail.....JMO

You're not just a dumb ass, at least in this post. It's impossible (unless zero-friction pool balls are invented) for a side-spinning CB to hit an OB full without giving it some minute amount of spin. Sometimes this spin is negligible, but sometimes, especially on bank shots, it's a very important factor in the shot.

-Andrew

 

[pete lafond]

can someone tell me why it really matters???

you have shot you need to make, and you have a position you need to attain........do it.

if it transfers spin or if it just twists.......you make the shot and get position.

why argue? just seems like to much over analyzing on the computer and not enough playing on the table.

VAP

Yes, this is very important because now the angle of attact plus english on the CB plus speed will effect the outcome. Understanding this or not is the difference in making difficult banks when needed.

 

[PoolSleuth]

Try this; Align a stripe ball so that the stripe is sideways. Hit the CB into it directly with left spin. You should see the stripe going diagonally and not sideways. The effect is a twist that occurs as a result of the CB spin and the OB against the felt.

Will try.........

 

[pete lafond]

The OB DOES travel longer off the rail on a bank when outside english is applied! Line it up and try it!

Yes it does but would travel much longer off the rail given an OB with side english only.

So what you're saying is the OB will travel forward with top spin AND some side spin, right? This always happens with a side-spinning ball, whether it's the OB after a side-spinning CB hits it, or whether it's the CB after an off-center cue tip hits it. If there's any sideways component to the spin on the OB at all, it was put there by the CB. Sometimes this sideways component comes from a non-full hit, and sometimes it comes from a spinning CB spinning the OB in a gear effect. Either way, the CB spins the OB. "Twist" and "spin" are not different in this context, and I fail to see what distinction you're trying to make between those two things. And if there's spin on the OB, it was "transferred" there from something. All kinetic energy of any object is transferred to the object from something, and on a pool table, the CB is the only source it could have come from.

-Andrew

In my original statement, I stated that a CB spinning sideways does not cause the OB to spin sideways. Only the rails and balls hit at an angle can cause this (this is why cross banks work). The reason for stating this is that an understanding of what really happens enables better control and better shot making.

An example is where this knowledge is useful;

You have a long up rail cut shot into the corner pocket. The OB rests on the rail and must go past the side pocket. Both right hand and left hand English on the OB will cause you to miss. One spin will cause the OB to drift away from the rail and the other will cause it to hug the rail and then kick out once it hits the furthest tip of the side pocket.

Also, certain shots are pocketed more easily with the correct spin on the OB. In effect you can end up making the pocket bigger or smaller by the spin on the OB.

 

[pete lafond]

You're not just a dumb ass, at least in this post. It's impossible (unless zero-friction pool balls are invented) for a side-spinning CB to hit an OB full without giving it some minute amount of spin. Sometimes this spin is negligible, but sometimes, especially on bank shots, it's a very important factor in the shot.

-Andrew

See the illustration in my earlier post. You will see that it will affect a bank as most expect it to.

This is very credible and important information especially in playing safeties in nine ball. I have seen many poor safeties when players are trying to bury the OB. Knowing how to affect the OB can make the difference in the OB being well hidden or popping out allowing the opponent to see it. So pure right spin vs. top right spin will result differently.

 

[Chris]

RE: Sidespin causing swerve

I'm tired of people jumping in threads, calling everybody ignorant and then when confronted with proof, they are nowhere to be found. I posted that about the sidespin, you jumped my sh*t, I cited my sources and *poof* you were gone.

Here's a recent post where Bob Jewett discusses this and seems to be saying the same thing I was:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=311543&postcount=37

I'd be interested in hearing about the tests you've done to convince yourself that pure sidespin causes CB swerve. I'm happy to debate it, but drive-by postings that call everybody ignorant are not cool.

I qualified it after your post saying that there will be tiny (i.e. not observable) amounts of swerve, with pure side, but not relevant for the discussion we were talking about at the time.

As for the english being transferred to the OB, I haven't tested that, but my experience tells me that I can transfer english to the OB, the key is that more english is transferred on slower shots. If you're testing with medium speed shots, you won't notice too much of an effect.

Cheers,
RC

I've had enough Physics classes, and have taken advantage of transferred side spin often enough to understand with certainty that side spin does transfer to the object ball.

 

[CrossSideLarry]

Side Spin Transfer vs Collision Induced Throw?

I would like to hear what Freddy "The Beard" Bentivegna has to say about this? Also would appreciate an opinion from Robert Byrne?

Cross Side Larry

"Learn from the best, and beat the rest"

 

[sixpack]

Call it whatever you want, but sidespin will cause the CB to swerve and will have an affect on the OB.

At a very slow or high speed it is barely worth noting, but if at medium speed (especially with top or bottom) it is quite noticable. Then naturally if you elevate the butt at any speed it will also increase the swerve.

...

.

The statement we were talking about was if it was pure sidespin (no top or bottom) then the CB doesn't swerve noticeably. I got this from "The Science of pocket billiards" by Jack Kohler and it seemed to be confirmed from my own experiments. The thread I referred was one in which another experiment for checking this was presented by Bob Jewett.

Cheers,
RC

 

[chefjeff]

I play in bars....the other night, the 8-ball looked like someone had puked on it the night before. It was so sticky that I was sure to use outside on a cut.

On clean equipment, maybe not; on the dirty tables I frequent, always!

If my spin on this argument is left, then is yours right?

Jeff Livingston

 

[mnShooter]

RE: Sidespin causing swerve

Here's a recent post where Bob Jewett discusses this and seems to be saying the same thing I was:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=311543&postcount=37

I'd be interested in hearing about the tests you've done to convince yourself that pure sidespin causes CB swerve. I'm happy to debate it, but drive-by postings that call everybody ignorant are not cool.

I qualified it after your post saying that there will be tiny (i.e. not observable) amounts of swerve, with pure side, but not relevant for the discussion we were talking about at the time.

As for the english being transferred to the OB, I haven't tested that, but my experience tells me that I can transfer english to the OB, the key is that more english is transferred on slower shots. If you're testing with medium speed shots, you won't notice too much of an effect.

Cheers,
RC

Hey sixpack. My post was out of line. I don't want to create any enemies here. Just want the truth.

When I hit a ball with straight left it squirts to the right and then swerves back to the left. I don't know how else to prove it to you. It doesn't matter if your hitting high or low left english because the cueball will 'twist' when it is rolling, causing the swerve. Do you have a link to that other thread? I would like to look at your proofs.

 

[Chris]

The statement we were talking about was if it was pure sidespin (no top or bottom) then the CB doesn't swerve noticeably. I got this from "The Science of pocket billiards" by Jack Kohler and it seemed to be confirmed from my own experiments. The thread I referred was one in which another experiment for checking this was presented by Bob Jewett.

Cheers,
RC

If the side spin is exactly parallel with the bed of the table, there will be no swerve until the friction of the table cause the cue ball to begin to roll. At that point, the cue ball will begin to swerve.

Even before that point, the side spin will transfer from the cue ball to the object ball, if they collide.

 

[Cory in DC]

When talking about whether sidespin transfers (I'm pretty sure it does), you have to worry about whether deflection and swerve are leading to something other than a direct hit. So if I set up a bank, hit it with right english, and the ball comes off the rail wide of the natural line, then Pete can say it was actually contact-induced spin, caused by leftward deflection and rightward swerve (or that it was twist, not a transfer).

But what about this shot that comes up fairly often in 8-ball: Your opponent's ball is in front of a corner pocket, and you've got your own ball 6"-10" away, with the cue ball lined up dead straight with both tables. It's pretty easy to pocket both balls using low english; it's also pretty easy to pocket the front ball and make your ball stop short of the pocket using an above-center hit.

So low english puts top on the OB, and high english puts bottom on the OB, even on a direct, full hit. And now there's no swerve, deflection, or anything like that in play.

So what principles of logic or physics say that top and bottom definitely do transfer, but that left and right cannot?

Cory

 

[Cornerman]

Needless to say, even though I believed this, I felt it deserved a test. The results were accurate. Right English did not transfer left English, nor the reverse. .

Maybe there's confusion as to how much spin is transferred. You're absolutely incorrect to say that the english did not transfer. That being said, the spin that transfers is pretty small, and normally doesn't make much impact on anything until the object ball that got the minute spin hits a cushion. Then the minute tranferred spin is very obvious.

Too many high-speed videos are out there to prove this. It's very difficult if not impossible for you to see the minute spin transfer by eye.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

Yes it does but would travel much longer off the rail given an OB with side english only.
.

This is where you are confused as to the amount of side spin transferred. An OB with side only will have 100 times more sidespin than an object ball that has sidespin transferred to it from a spinning cue ball. Again, the transferred spin is substantially smaller. But, it's still happens, and it does affect the object ball rebound.

The comparison should be between the object ball with transferred spin vs. object ball with no spin. There is no reason to compare it to an object ball with spin only since there's no reason to compare it.

Fred

 

[pete lafond]

When talking about whether sidespin transfers (I'm pretty sure it does), you have to worry about whether deflection and swerve are leading to something other than a direct hit. So if I set up a bank, hit it with right english, and the ball comes off the rail wide of the natural line, then Pete can say it was actually contact-induced spin, caused by leftward deflection and rightward swerve (or that it was twist, not a transfer).

But what about this shot that comes up fairly often in 8-ball: Your opponent's ball is in front of a corner pocket, and you've got your own ball 6"-10" away, with the cue ball lined up dead straight with both tables. It's pretty easy to pocket both balls using low english; it's also pretty easy to pocket the front ball and make your ball stop short of the pocket using an above-center hit.

So low english puts top on the OB, and high english puts bottom on the OB, even on a direct, full hit. And now there's no swerve, deflection, or anything like that in play.

So what principles of logic or physics say that top and bottom definitely do transfer, but that left and right cannot?

Cory

In the case you are taking about; This works because of two reasons. 1. the CB stops and no longer interferes with the shot ahead. 2. If the 8 ball and the ball in front of it are closer, this allows the first ball, 8 ball, to travel forward with forward spin more readily.

Top spin and bottom spin have different effects than side spin because the friction affecting the shot are in the same direction.

 

[TheCueHunter]

What pete said is extremely absurb because how else to do explain spinning banks in and when a ball is lying in the whole and there is a ball in front of it and he have a little angleand you wanna make both balls you use inside english which obvously puts the follow spin on the ball. I can hit a bak straight with extreme left and make the ball go right how do you explain that

 

[sixpack]

Hey sixpack. My post was out of line. I don't want to create any enemies here. Just want the truth.

When I hit a ball with straight left it squirts to the right and then swerves back to the left. I don't know how else to prove it to you. It doesn't matter if your hitting high or low left english because the cueball will 'twist' when it is rolling, causing the swerve.

Fair enough, no hard feelings.

I'm just a little sore because of another poster who called me a liar after I posted a story. He said if I could prove it he'd print a retraction, I pm'd him proof and he said he'd check it out and I never heard from him again. Sorry you took the brunt of it.

Cheers,
RC

 

[pete lafond]

This is where you are confused as to the amount of side spin transferred. An OB with side only will have 100 times more sidespin than an object ball that has sidespin transferred to it from a spinning cue ball. Again, the transferred spin is substantially smaller. But, it's still happens, and it does affect the object ball rebound.

The comparison should be between the object ball with transferred spin vs. object ball with no spin. There is no reason to compare it to an object ball with spin only since there's no reason to compare it.

Fred

No confusion here. I am discussing the effects that take place are not to be misleading to those that think side spin causes side spin. In fact a twist occurs resulting in a diagonal one. The accuracy of this is important to the outcome expected.