Sighting techniques Snooker vs pool

rrick33

Rick
Silver Member
I'm an avid pool player but I oten wonder if there is a significant difference in the way snooker players approach the shot as opposed to pool players.

Does the difference in the size of the pockets and balls play a factor in the level of precision associated with sighting a shot?

If so, what are snooker players doing to gain that added level of precision in the sighting process?
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm an avid pool player but I oten wonder if there is a significant difference in the way snooker players approach the shot as opposed to pool players.

Does the difference in the size of the pockets and balls play a factor in the level of precision associated with sighting a shot?

If so, what are snooker players doing to gain that added level of precision in the sighting process?

Rick:

Although snooker balls are about 5% smaller than pool balls, it's not their size itself (whether smaller or not, doesn't matter) that has any bearing. Rather, it's their size in relation to the size of the pockets on the table that has the bearing.

Look at a Russian Pyramid table and its set of balls (probably the tightest ball/pocket clearance of any cue sport). Russian Pyramid balls are the largest in the cueing sports, yet the extremely tight pocket clearance is what sets the potting difficulty of this sport apart from pool (other than the rules of the game, of course, where caroming the cue ball into a pocket is considered scoring).

200px-Russian_and_American_pool_ball_comparison.jpg

Comparison of 68 mm (211⁄16 in) Russian and 57 mm (21⁄4 in) American-style pool balls.​

It is the fact that in snooker, there is very little pocket slop in comparison to American pool equipment. In addition, in snooker, the pocket facings are rounded, and NOT chiseled, which will reject a poorly-hit ball. You can get away with hitting the chiseled face of an American pool table pocket, and as long as you don't slam it, the pocket will accept the shot. Try that on a snooker table -- hit the rounded face of the pocket -- and the pocket spits the ball out. (You can get away with lightly -- and I mean very lightly -- grazing the innermost edge of the rounding, but if the ball hits any part of the rounding with a good percentage of the ball itself, "it ain't going.")

Thus, in snooker, you aim at the center of the pocket. Not any pocket chiseling, not the adjacent rail to "help it in" (as is done on a pool table when sending balls down the rail); just the center of the pocket.

Also, you don't have the plethora of "alternative aiming techniques" like you have in pool. For instance, in CJ Wiley's "touch of inside" aiming technique (discussed in the Aiming Conversation subforum), he advocates pushing all the pocket slop to one side of the pocket, by aiming slightly "full" and with slight inside spin and with an accelerating stroke. He's leveraging the deflection characteristics of hitting a cue ball slightly off-axis (slight inside "side") to "deflect" the cue ball to cut the object more. This technique absolutely requires the pocket slop inherent on an American pool table, because the aim ISN'T at the center of the pocket. This technique would NEVER work on a snooker table. But the technique IS leveraging (exploiting?) the characteristics of American pool equipment, and it can be used successfully in that environment only.

Also, there's no such thing as CTE in use in snooker -- at least in the accomplished player ranks (i.e. not a pool player "trying his hand" at snooker). You either aim at the center of the pocket, or you don't. The rest would be considered "leaving it to chance that you get the pivot right to put you on the exact line to pocket that ball center pocket."

Getting to the meat of answering your question, the heart of a snooker player's accuracy is his/her FUNDAMENTALS. A snooker player's fundamentals "locks in" the player's body to the shot line, it "locks in" the players stroke arm to that foundation, and doesn't allow the wavering or loosey-goosiness that you see in pool player stances. This video demonstrates:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gSK4w_9S_x0

Notice how solid the snooker stance is, and how, well, "wet noodly" the pool stance is by comparison.

Also, teaching and coaching in snooker is by and far more regimented compared to pool. There's even a published syllabus that goes w-a-y back, that most (if not all) snooker instructors and coaches teach from. Compare that to pool, which traditionally has been a "learn as you go" approach. The former enforces that all aspects of good fundamentals are covered, while the latter encourages laziness -- where the player picks and chooses what he/she wants to learn, according to the "fad of the day" or what he/she sees as a "magic pill."

Thus, in pool, basic fundamentals such as proper head/eye alignment to the shot line (including the discovery of what is one's "vision center" and the bearing a dominant eye has upon it) is never learned, or learned through "fad of the day" teaching techniques as you see being aggressively marketed on the pool forums. Those "marketing for a buck" techniques are doing a service though, in that they attempt to plug a hole or two in the swiss cheese approach to learning pool.

Summary: snooker's greater accuracy is a "fallout" -- a result, if you will -- of proper teaching techniques and proper syllabus/learning on the part of the student. Pool's lack of it (lack of same level of accuracy, that is) is a result of the mindset of "get what you need to make it good enough for government work," as well as a result of accepting what the equipment allows vs. exploiting the equipment intentionally.

Hope that helps?
-Sean
 

OneFourSeven

Registered
I'm an avid pool player but I oten wonder if there is a significant difference in the way snooker players approach the shot as opposed to pool players.

I’d say that the standard aiming system in snooker is broken down into five shots: full ball, ¾ ball, ½ ball, ¼ ball, fine cut. One can go a step further and say that a shot between, for instance, full ball and ¾ ball would be a “thick” ¾ ball. I’ve never played that way, but that’s the way the game is taught. I’m sure there are dozens of videos on YouTube explaining snooker aiming methods better than I have.

If so, what are snooker players doing to gain that added level of precision in the sighting process?

I’d say it’s all about stroke; consistent stroke, consistent success at potting.

It is the fact that in snooker, there is very little pocket slop in comparison to American pool equipment. In addition, in snooker, the pocket facings are rounded, and NOT chiseled, which will reject a poorly-hit ball. You can get away with hitting the chiseled face of an American pool table pocket, and as long as you don't slam it, the pocket will accept the shot. Try that on a snooker table -- hit the rounded face of the pocket -- and the pocket spits the ball out. (You can get away with lightly -- and I mean very lightly -- grazing the innermost edge of the rounding, but if the ball hits any part of the rounding with a good percentage of the ball itself, "it ain't going.")

Great post, Sean. One other thing, Pool table pockets are also “wider” than you give them credit for. As an example, if you’ve got an object ball close to a side rail and you shoot down table to make the ball in the corner pocket, if you brush the rail on a Pool table, the object ball will generally still go in the pocket. Not so on a snooker table, if you touch the rail with the object ball you’ve missed your shot.

Thus, in snooker, you aim at the center of the pocket. Not any pocket chiseling, not the adjacent rail to "help it in" (as is done on a pool table when sending balls down the rail); just the center of the pocket.

There’s an American guy that plays in the same snooker league that I do. I think it’s the third year he’s played with us, and over the years, he’s become quite a good player. I didn’t really get to know him until the second year, but I saw enough of his game to see where his mistakes were. He and I became friends, and we used to practice together frequently. Anyway, he was missing all his side pocket cuts and the reason was, he was aiming to hit the far cheek of the pocket and, of course, on a snooker table that’s a miss. So, my suggestion was, aim “for the leather” (of the pocket) and forget trying to put the ball in off the cheeks of the pockets.

One thing he’s never been able to master is, using a rest. I used to try and leave him rest shots on the black end of the table. He’d generally miss them (or screw his shape up) and I’d end up with a few black balls due to his errors with the rest. In some manners, I think it’s a mental block Pool players have about using a rest. After hearing a rest called a “ladies’ aid”, I’d be uncomfortable using one too. But if you can’t play with a short rest, never mind the long rest, your snooker game is going to suffer.

Also, you don't have the plethora of "alternative aiming techniques" like you have in pool.

See my comments above.

Getting to the meat of answering your question, the heart of a snooker player's accuracy is his/her FUNDAMENTALS. A snooker player's fundamentals "locks in" the player's body to the shot line, it "locks in" the players stroke arm to that foundation, and doesn't allow the wavering or loosey-goosiness that you see in pool player stances.

My American friend refers to my stroke as “mechanical”. Even though I think he’s being cheeky, I take it as a compliment. I’ve worked for years on my stroke, and if some tells me I’m delivering the cue exactly the same every shot, then all the practice I’ve put in is starting to pay off.
 

TheThaiger

Banned
I often read on this site about how prevalent coaching is in snooker. I suppose there are clubs that have resident coaches but these are few and far between AFAIK. The majority of decent cueists start off by playing when they are young, on small tables, with small balls and tiny pockets, where accuracy is a prerequisite, and with no coaching whatsoever. No books, no DVDs, just instinctively learning how to play the game for yourself. I think the snooker stance is developed entirely naturally under such circumstances. I liken it to 'scaffolding' on the table - it provides the maximum strength and efficiency with the minimum effort and moving parts. It is organic where there are no external influences.

I believe these are the great cultural differences between UK & US players, and is our (UK) greatest strength. I think, over a certain age, the damage is done and differences that have developed in terms of stance and philosophy to the game are largely irreconcilable.

I've meant to start a thread on how players started playing, and on what equipment, in the Main Forum for a while now, but so far haven't been arsed. I suspect most would say they were adults and have only played on full sized tables and equipment. I think these are hugely limiting factors in how good you will go on to become. I think table size is very important and you should play them incrementally. Learning to 'shrink the table' is vital in snooker.

START YOUNG. START SMALL.

Anyway, this thread is about aiming. No snooker player gives a rat's ass about aiming: never have, never will. If you have a perfect stroke and cannot aim properly within 6 months of picking up a cue, go find something else to do, for snooker is not for you. Aiming is probably the easiest thing to master in cuesports, yet gets such enormous airplay around here. Given the very real challenges snooker players face, it's a total waste of time.
 

church66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Excellent Post by sFleinen

Rick:

Although snooker balls are about 5% smaller than pool balls, it's not their size itself (whether smaller or not, doesn't matter) that has any bearing. Rather, it's their size in relation to the size of the pockets on the table that has the bearing.

Look at a Russian Pyramid table and its set of balls (probably the tightest ball/pocket clearance of any cue sport). Russian Pyramid balls are the largest in the cueing sports, yet the extremely tight pocket clearance is what sets the potting difficulty of this sport apart from pool (other than the rules of the game, of course, where caroming the cue ball into a pocket is considered scoring).

200px-Russian_and_American_pool_ball_comparison.jpg

Comparison of 68 mm (211⁄16 in) Russian and 57 mm (21⁄4 in) American-style pool balls.​

It is the fact that in snooker, there is very little pocket slop in comparison to American pool equipment. In addition, in snooker, the pocket facings are rounded, and NOT chiseled, which will reject a poorly-hit ball. You can get away with hitting the chiseled face of an American pool table pocket, and as long as you don't slam it, the pocket will accept the shot. Try that on a snooker table -- hit the rounded face of the pocket -- and the pocket spits the ball out. (You can get away with lightly -- and I mean very lightly -- grazing the innermost edge of the rounding, but if the ball hits any part of the rounding with a good percentage of the ball itself, "it ain't going.")

Thus, in snooker, you aim at the center of the pocket. Not any pocket chiseling, not the adjacent rail to "help it in" (as is done on a pool table when sending balls down the rail); just the center of the pocket.

Also, you don't have the plethora of "alternative aiming techniques" like you have in pool. For instance, in CJ Wiley's "touch of inside" aiming technique (discussed in the Aiming Conversation subforum), he advocates pushing all the pocket slop to one side of the pocket, by aiming slightly "full" and with slight inside spin and with an accelerating stroke. He's leveraging the deflection characteristics of hitting a cue ball slightly off-axis (slight inside "side") to "deflect" the cue ball to cut the object more. This technique absolutely requires the pocket slop inherent on an American pool table, because the aim ISN'T at the center of the pocket. This technique would NEVER work on a snooker table. But the technique IS leveraging (exploiting?) the characteristics of American pool equipment, and it can be used successfully in that environment only.

Also, there's no such thing as CTE in use in snooker -- at least in the accomplished player ranks (i.e. not a pool player "trying his hand" at snooker). You either aim at the center of the pocket, or you don't. The rest would be considered "leaving it to chance that you get the pivot right to put you on the exact line to pocket that ball center pocket."

Getting to the meat of answering your question, the heart of a snooker player's accuracy is his/her FUNDAMENTALS. A snooker player's fundamentals "locks in" the player's body to the shot line, it "locks in" the players stroke arm to that foundation, and doesn't allow the wavering or loosey-goosiness that you see in pool player stances. This video demonstrates:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gSK4w_9S_x0

Notice how solid the snooker stance is, and how, well, "wet noodly" the pool stance is by comparison.

Also, teaching and coaching in snooker is by and far more regimented compared to pool. There's even a published syllabus that goes w-a-y back, that most (if not all) snooker instructors and coaches teach from. Compare that to pool, which traditionally has been a "learn as you go" approach. The former enforces that all aspects of good fundamentals are covered, while the latter encourages laziness -- where the player picks and chooses what he/she wants to learn, according to the "fad of the day" or what he/she sees as a "magic pill."

Thus, in pool, basic fundamentals such as proper head/eye alignment to the shot line (including the discovery of what is one's "vision center" and the bearing a dominant eye has upon it) is never learned, or learned through "fad of the day" teaching techniques as you see being aggressively marketed on the pool forums. Those "marketing for a buck" techniques are doing a service though, in that they attempt to plug a hole or two in the swiss cheese approach to learning pool.

Summary: snooker's greater accuracy is a "fallout" -- a result, if you will -- of proper teaching techniques and proper syllabus/learning on the part of the student. Pool's lack of it (lack of same level of accuracy, that is) is a result of the mindset of "get what you need to make it good enough for government work," as well as a result of accepting what the equipment allows vs. exploiting the equipment intentionally.

Hope that helps?
-Sean

I've read this a few times now and it is good stuff.Well worth da bump.:wink::):thumbup:
 

church66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sighting techniques

I don't think you could beat Stephen Hendry in this category as Hendry was a genius.He would sight up his shot then have a glance at the pocket he was potting into,then shoot his shot & the techique worked and it kept the ref busy re-spotting the colours.Ronnie O'Sullivan was faster at keeping the referee's on their toes and I hope he comes back.

Stephen Hendry's 147 at the 2012 World Championships :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Vd6SnP7A8
 

Underclocked

.........Whut?.........
Silver Member
Sean, I compliment you on a most excellent post. However, I learned snooker in the Ozarks of Missouri and guarantee it is possible to play great snooker without the benefit of traditional coaching. That's not to say that such coaching might not have changed things for the better, I'm almost certain it would have.

Such simply wasn't possible in those days and I don't see it being any more possible today - in this country.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
It has been said often that snooker players don't use aiming systems and that no one in snooker ever talks about aiming.

Well here are many videos where aiming is in fact discussed. If you would like to do what snooker players do there is plenty of instruction on the fundamentals on YouTube. No one is trying to stop you from trying any of this.

Snooker Aiming -
Aiming Instruction in Snooker -

Fractional Aiming -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL3NOn-A9Bs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLjSlHr38dc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxDQB5enB4g Complete with nifty gadget to compute the aim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqnQTRlyfY

Line of Aim - FEEL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8UE0j0A21c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WActC0bJ55k - this one he advocates doing what a 9 ball player would do.



HERESY!!! Potting without the Dummy (Ghost) Ball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQM5lFkeYl8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjCnZSVjBrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M18didHSIBE

Aiming Test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kHZCC922Fbk Gee it does seem that aiming seems important to this coach.

Aiming not important? Steve Davis thinks otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNLGgfrNavg

A comment on this video:
"I purchased this sightright board on the strength of this video as I have major problems seeing the centre. On a good day I can knock in 50. On a bad day, I'm putting side on the ball and can't knock in 10. I have astigmatism. So when I look down the line, I see a 'V'. So where does that leave me? Ps I'm a big Davis fan, but mr nugget, what do you do if you have 2 focal points?"

A computer program to aid in aiming at snooker (works for pool as well):
http://www.onekaraoke.com/spac/spac.asp - apparently this person doesn't think aming is easy.
Free version - courtesty of Wei Chao www.cuetable.com go to Aiming Calculator

Snooker Fundamentals: For those who wish to stand like a snooker player.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aor1dnndksU&list=PLCD4054E9915362E0

Surprise!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-0n4NjNWEk
 
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