Simonis 760 vs. 860 & bumpers questions...

[jaetee]

Anyone here played on 760 and 860 Simonis on the same day and on similar equipment?

I'd love to hear about the differences in speed and wear characteristics.

I'm getting close to buying a table and figure there's a 90% chance I'll be putting new cloth on it in the process.

Also, how long does bumper rubber last before it goes dead?

 

[ROB.M]

Post

Anyone here played on 760 and 860 Simonis on the same day and on similar equipment?

I'd love to hear about the differences in speed and wear characteristics.

I'm getting close to buying a table and figure there's a 90% chance I'll be putting new cloth on it in the process.

Also, how long does bumper rubber last before it goes dead?

-

It's tricky to give u a accurate answer because the worsted cloth can play really oddly due to how it's stretched/installed and climate.
760 is faster than 860/860HR and the difference between 860 and 860HR is small but I think the 860HR blue plays faster than standard 860 simonis green.

I can't speak for all cushions.... But any cushion I sell or install will last at least a life time if not longer; tho we will never know for sure.

Which table are you considering and which cushions?



Rob.M

 

[staypuff578]

I have Simonis 860, Aramith Premium balls, and an Aramith red circle cue ball.

Friend has Simonis 760, Aramith Premium balls, and an Aramith red circle cue ball.

His is a bit faster, and rolls different (he installed his, I had mine professionally done), that's about it.

His 760 is too much for me, as you have to tap every shot and are most likely gonna be out of shape on the next shot. 860 seems to do the trick. But hey, at the end of the day, you're gonna get what you want.

 

[3andstop]

I had 760 on my GC now 860. 860 is better. Still plenty fast but a little slower than 760. I play straight pool and 1 pkt. I hated the way the 760 seemed to have that one extra CB rotation that sent you too far in tight position spots.

I don't know how or what you play but I suggest 860, not to mention most pool rooms have that and speed adjustments might be easier also.

 

[hang-the-9]

You may want to check how lively the rails are before you pick the cloth. If the rails are deader and you don't (or can't) want to replace them yet, get the slower cloth 100% or you will be really annoyed. I played on a newer diamond with fast cloth at someone's house and I had to adjust speed to go an extra rail or I'd be soft rolling almost every shot.

There is some good info about their products right from Simonis. http://www.simoniscloth.com/simonis-styles/simonis-860

I have an 8' table that will be setup soon and I'm picking 860 for it without even having played with the rails. I'd rather hit the ball a bit harder than a bit softer.

 

[logical]

You may want to check how lively the rails are before you pick the cloth. If the rails are deader and you don't (or can't) want to replace them yet, get the slower cloth 100% or you will be really annoyed. I played on a newer diamond with fast cloth at someone's house and I had to adjust speed to go an extra rail or I'd be soft rolling almost every shot.

There is some good info about their products right from Simonis. http://www.simoniscloth.com/simonis-styles/simonis-860

I have an 8' table that will be setup soon and I'm picking 860 for it without even having played with the rails. I'd rather hit the ball a bit harder than a bit softer.

I'm not following the logic. Wouldn't you want faster cloth if the rails are borderline dead?

 

[Pushout]

You have a bumper pool table?

 

[Paul8ball]

I work for Diamond Billiards. I have tested Simonis 860 and 760. The difference is the thickness of the cloth and in the ratio of wool to nylon. 860 is 90/10 and 760 is 70/30. 760 cloth is 30% faster than 860 (by measurement) the additional nylon is to improve wear because 760 cloth is very thin.

Generally, 760 cloth is too fast for pool in my opinion. You also need to factor in the quality of the table mechanic installing the cloth. The tighter the stretch the thinner the cloth will be and therefore play faster. The best mechanics know how much they can stretch 860, so they will mark lines on the cloth. This will make it easier to stretch the cloth uniformly and consistently from table to table.

Simonis 860HR is the same thickness as 860, but it is a 70/30 blend like 760. This improves the life of the cloth as much as 50%. Even more important is keeping the cloth clean. Chalk dust gets into the fibers of the cloth and break it down. It is necessary to clean the cloth daily to maintain consistent speed and playability, while extending its life as long as practical.

Cushion life is complicated. I have seen cushions on extremely old tables still play well. Today, the average cost of cushions is low enough for you consider putting a new set on a used table purchase. Get a qualified mechanic to do this for you, plus install the cloth, and level your table. You will be more happy in the end.

 

[hang-the-9]

I'm not following the logic. Wouldn't you want faster cloth if the rails are borderline dead?

If you put slow cloth on slow rails you have a really slow table. If you put fast cloth on fast rails, you get a very bouncy table. I don't really mean dead rails, but more slower ones. Slow rails + fast cloth = medium speed at least when going off rails, which is quite a bit.

If the rails are actually or close to it, that's replacement time.

 

[ChrisAinNC]

The fastest combination is using 760 on the bed and 860 on the rails - assuming you have lively rails like Artemis, Diamond or Superspeed. The slightly thicker 860 cloth grabs the balls better on the rails which transfers more spin, resulting in more speed. Rail rubbers should never wear out and actually I've heard can play just as lively if not more lively after numerous decades. If the table rails are subject to extreme weather conditions for an extended period normally associated with a table being in storage (dampness, extreme heat or cold), then the rails can then become hardened or too soft, and then will need replacing at that point.

 

[Webbs Billiards]

When I first started selling Simonis, they told me as a general rule, that 760 was engineered for 9 ball 9' and larger tables. But 8' Oversized and under, though playable, would play very fast. 860 was engineered for the 7-8' range and 860HR was specifically engineered for the heavy use bar box environment.
If you're mostly playing at home, on a 7-8' table and 8 ball is your game, I recommend Simonis 860.

 

[SouthernDraw]

HR = High Resistance

The hr in 860hr stands for high resistance. So as I understand it, it is resistant to the heat generated by spin and speed of balls (especially cue ball). You can actually see the wear pattern from the spot to second diamond along the rail (at head string). Because of the repeated shot and also the spin, the cloth see high degrees and it wears the cloth. They claim that this is the most durable commercial cloth on the market. I don't believe that it is the most durable cloth. I've seen the SuperPro last a little longer and for bars it has a stain guard. I think it plays just as well. But, Simonis supports the pro and amateur tournaments. That should create some brand loyalty.

Daren

 

[A-1 billiards]

I work for Diamond Billiards. I have tested Simonis 860 and 760. The difference is the thickness of the cloth and in the ratio of wool to nylon. 860 is 90/10 and 760 is 70/30. 760 cloth is 30% faster than 860 (by measurement) the additional nylon is to improve wear because 760 cloth is very thin.

Generally, 760 cloth is too fast for pool in my opinion. You also need to factor in the quality of the table mechanic installing the cloth. The tighter the stretch the thinner the cloth will be and therefore play faster. The best mechanics know how much they can stretch 860, so they will mark lines on the cloth. This will make it easier to stretch the cloth uniformly and consistently from table to table.

Simonis 860HR is the same thickness as 860, but it is a 70/30 blend like 760. This improves the life of the cloth as much as 50%. Even more important is keeping the cloth clean. Chalk dust gets into the fibers of the cloth and break it down. It is necessary to clean the cloth daily to maintain consistent speed and playability, while extending its life as long as practical.





Cushion life is complicated. I have seen cushions on extremely old tables still play well. Today, the average cost of cushions is low enough for you consider putting a new set on a used table purchase. Get a qualified mechanic to do this for you, plus install the cloth, and level your table. You will be more happy in the end.

Paul,

When Glen and I made the installation DVDs for Simonis we used 860 HR for both the bed and rail DVDs on the 9ft Gold crown and the Valley bar box. The 860 HR is the same cloth as 760, except that the final shearing of the playing surface, It's the same as 860. ( slightly more nap left on the thread ) making the 860 HR a little slower than the 760, and a little faster than standard 860.

From my experience, the differences in speed are far less than 30% maybe 10% if that. In a standard test of shooting a ball across the width of the table with a firm hard stroke, five times back and forth is a good standard measurement. Using 760 you might get five and a quarter to five and a half times and four and three quarter with standard 860. 860 HR would fall in between the two.

Diamond tables using Artemis cushions or Diamond black cushions will rebound the ball faster and in a more lively way than other brands of tables because of the stiffer rail construction, more bolts per rail, thicker slate (less vibration absorbing the energy)
an therefore give the table overall faster play than many other brands. That's why I rarely use 760 on a Diamond table. On the other hand, many of the older Gold Crowns we service in pool rooms and private clubs play fantastic with 760.

The proper application of the cloth, using a marked stretch index, for that model of cloth, is also critical to the table having good uniform speed. Improperly installed cloth can dramatically slow the table down, make the table bank poorly as well, or get loose over time. I've seen countless locations where the Simonis moves under your bridge hand after just a few months of play. Properly installed Simonis should never loosen up to a point where it moves or bunches up under your hand movement.

The overall speed of any table is a combination of factors, but all things being equal the speed differences between 860, 860 HR and 760 is not as wide as most people believe.

Jay

 

[jaetee]

Thanks for all of the information... there's a couple 9' on CL that I'm eyeballing and will be making purchase relatively soon. Unfortunately, I missed out on a really sweet deal for a Brunswick GCIII last week.

When the time finally comes, I will definitely hire a table mechanic for the build and install of new cloth, but I was curious at what point in age the cushions are more likely to be bad. It sounds like that's not so much a worry.

That begs the question... what is the most common cause of dead rails? is it old, hardened rubber, or loose rubber?

One of the tables I am considering is currently disassembled, so it's not like I can hit any balls on it to determine if the rails are dead. From the pics, it looks like a standard, relatively conservative Olhausen or Fischer furniture table. Frankly, part of me is thinking I should not even bother going to look since the cost of failure in this case is so high... But the table matches the color of my hardwood floors and the guy is only asking $450 for it. And the number of 9' tables is very limited compared to the flood of 8' and 7' tables available for sale in my area.... I just don't see myself being satisfied on an 8'

Anyway, it sure would suck to spend money on the table itself, then upwards of $300 on cloth, more for installing LED lighting, and then the fee for the table mechanic.... only to then find out when I hit my first ball that the rails are for shit, or that the table plays bad... Or is there a good way to tell the quality of the cushions otherwise?

Well, I think I just talked myself out of going to look at that one. I've waited this long, might as well wait some more.

In the meantime, I can go ahead and start to pick up the lights and new cloth (will go with 860) so I'm ready when I finally do pick a table... I just want to make sure I'm going about it the right way and get it correct the first time.