Simonis 860HR slide

ShortBusRuss

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
So, I read a few other threads on Simonis 860HR, but they seem to be a bit older, and I think Simonis might have tweaked the cloth a bit in the past few years. My club here in Germany recently recovered with 860HR, and while folks have mentioned that it plays similar to 860, that was not my experience, and I was wondering what the potential cause might be.

I played a tournament on these tables, and the overriding impression I got is that the cloth slides a LOT more. As in.. I would cut a ball in the center pocket, and attempt to spin the ball two rails out past another ball, and the angle would end up extremely long, not due to the spin taking, but the CB would track along the tangent line much longer than expected, and the spin would not "take" off either the first or second rail. I got hooked twice off a standard position route due to this, and I saw a couple of other folks experience the same. Also, it seemed that the cloth was over-sensitive to any side english applied on slower shots, and would either "twist" the OB out of the potting angle, or the CB would move slightly off track due to high levels of squirt. Leading one to move back much closer to center ball on most shots to minimize this effect.

The cloth has a few weeks wear on it, and the club is not getting a "ton" of use right now, so this might be due more to the cloth being fairly new.... But I got my new Diamond a few weeks ago with regular 860 on it, and it definitely does not play like that. I will note, all the balls were polished before the tournament. I also polished my balls at home to see if this was what was doing it, but I don't get the same slide.

Is it possible that either the club cloth is overstretched, or my table's cloth is understretched? Just curious about possible reasons the tables play so differently, both having been recovered recently.
 
Slippery new cloth reduces the effect of sidespin on the cue ball's path as it comes off the rails. As it ages the cloth becomes more grippy and you'll get more action from the rails. Conversely (or perversely), new cloth makes the cue ball get more action from follow or draw shots, as the slippery cloth lets the cue ball really get spinning.

I've had my table covered twice in the past three years with Simonis 860HR. The only difference is that the latest version is old-school tournament green, the only color they had available due to the Simonis factory flood.
 
loggerhead12 said:
Slippery new cloth reduces the effect of sidespin on the cue ball's path as it comes off the rails. As it ages the cloth becomes more grippy and you'll get more action from the rails. Conversely (or perversely), new cloth makes the cue ball get more action from follow or draw shots, as the slippery cloth lets the cue ball really get spinning.

I've had my table covered twice in the past three years with Simonis 860HR. The only difference is that the latest version is old-school tournament green, the only color they had available due to the Simonis factory flood.
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I did mention that both the club tables and my table were recovered at basically the same time.
 
Their old looms were destroyed in a flood. I think everything coming out now is on the new looms. I didn't notice any difference really between old and new other than a slight color variance. That's just a sample size of 1 though when I reclothed.
 
When my friend had new 860HR installed it slid for a long time, many months, I assume because it didn't get much play.
 
Like others have mentioned, you might be trying to compare apples to oranges if those club tables are not Diamond blue label. So what are the club tables?
 
Newer cloth with do that, also depends on how exactly it was stretched and how the cushions are. Variables are always there even when you try to make things exactly the same.
 
To many experts to state my opinion. What I know is I followed the Simonis installation instructions to the letter. If I was to assume MR does the same, then there is a notable difference between freshly installed old stock, and freshly installed new stock.

I don't care what brand table rails are sitting on the slate. Bed cloth is bed cloth, and action unrelated to rails should be very similar if the stretch is the "same".

Several pros at the USopen were commenting on the heavy amount of slide the "new" simonis had.
 
Lawnboy77 said:
Like others have mentioned, you might be trying to compare apples to oranges if those club tables are not Diamond blue label. So what are the club tables?
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They are 20+ year old Gold Crowns, which are "supposed" to play slower than Diamonds (at least the rails are), all things being equal. But it would seem that the amount of slide off OB contact BEFORE it hits the rail is pretty much unrelated to the table itself, as long as the slate is level. "Perhaps" in relation to the amount of spin that takes off the rail, but assuming that the slate is level, I can't see how table type would have much effect on how far the CB slides, assuming a clean, flat slate is on the table.

I think Poolmanis probably is closest to being correct, in that it is possible that whomever recovered the club tables overstretched the cloth, or my table is "understretched". I think the former is probably what it is, because the club tables play a lot less natural than my home table. I can tell my cloth is getting a little worn in by this time, and kick/bank angles are coming closer to the "normal" angles.
 
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hang-the-9 said:
Newer cloth with do that, also depends on how exactly it was stretched and how the cushions are. Variables are always there even when you try to make things exactly the same.
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I repeat again, for the third time. Both club tables and my own were recovered at roughly the same time. In fact, the club tables were recovered maybe a week earlier, and get more playtime, so the slide should be worse on my table, not on the club tables.
 
The_JV said:
To many experts to state my opinion. What I know is I followed the Simonis installation instructions to the letter. If I was to assume MR does the same, then there is a notable difference between freshly installed old stock, and freshly installed new stock.

I don't care what brand table rails are sitting on the slate. Bed cloth is bed cloth, and action unrelated to rails should be very similar if the stretch is the "same".

Several pros at the USopen were commenting on the heavy amount of slide the "new" simonis had.
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You think they might have overstretched the cloth at the U.S. Open?
 
Yeah a club table should have way more wear than a home table. Maybe it's 860 vs 860HR? A member above said HR slides way longer than regular 860. I don't know if I've ever actually played on HR. I've played for decades on 760 and 860. The cb squirt will definitely mess with your aim on brand new cloth, because the swerve is less (squirt remains the same).
 
ShortBusRuss said:
They are 20+ year old Gold Crowns, which are "supposed" to play slower than Diamonds (at least the rails are), all things being equal. But it would seem that the amount of slide off OB contact BEFORE it hits the rail is pretty much unrelated to the table itself, as long as the slate is level. "Perhaps" in relation to the amount of spin that takes off the rail, but assuming that the slate is level, I can't see how table type would have much effect on how far the CB slides, assuming a clean, flat slate is on the table.

I think Poolmanis probably is closest to being correct, in that it is possible that whomever recovered the club tables overstretched the cloth, or my table is "understretched". I think the former is probably what it is, because the club tables play a lot less natural than my home table. I can tell my cloth is getting a little worn in by this time, and kick/bank angles are coming closer to the "normal" angles.
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I think thin slates on home tables could vibrate more and slow the ball faster. But when comparing commercial quality GC's and Diamonds, that would not be a factor.

Overstretching Simonis I never heard as possible. Only understretching. You can see some of the mechanics use vise grips and pull with their body weight.
 
Nyquil said:
Their old looms were destroyed in a flood. I think everything coming out now is on the new looms. I didn't notice any difference really between old and new other than a slight color variance. That's just a sample size of 1 though when I reclothed.
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I've bought a lot of cloth since the flood, and it has been very consistent. The quality is as good or better than it was before.
They tried producing some on different looms early on, and it didn't work out very well. I got some of it and it looked and stretched a little differently.
They are only producing it in the re-tooled factory now, and having a really hard time keeping up with demand.
 
iusedtoberich said:
One more question, did the club have 860 or 860HR before the recovery a few weeks ago?
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Oh, I dunno. I don't play at the club much, just mostly on tournament/league days. I just noticed that, while I DEFINITELY noticed the "new cloth slide" on my home table in the first week or two, when I went to the club, it was pretty excessive. CB being prone to squirt a lot more, etc.
 
ShortBusRuss said:
Oh, I dunno. I don't play at the club much, just mostly on tournament/league days. I just noticed that, while I DEFINITELY noticed the "new cloth slide" on my home table in the first week or two, when I went to the club, it was pretty excessive. CB being prone to squirt a lot more, etc.
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Have some fun and go for 3 rail draw shots:) That's what we used to do when our club's table's would have new 760 every 6 months in the late 90's.
 
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