Slipstroke: Loose Grip = CB Action

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
I hate to bring up old subjects, especially ones I took a shot at before, but let me try again.

I just heard the term "slip stroke" for the first time, and I am wondering if it is related to my stroke. Over the years I developed a stroke which employs a very loose grip with definite wrist action. I do not allow the cue to slip, however, and I now apply beeswax to my wrap to keep it tacky and prevent my cue from slipping from my hand and my throwing my cue down table (without wax, it happens). It is my belief that a loose grip and wrist action greatly contribute to spin/english. I have also found that when I grip the cue tightly, it kills CB action.

I am particularly interested to know why a loose grip will fire a CB up and a "death" grip kills CB action.
 

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I hate to bring up old subjects, especially ones I took a shot at before, but let me try again.

I just heard the term "slip stroke" for the first time, and I am wondering if it is related to my stroke. Over the years I developed a stroke which employs a very loose grip with definite wrist action. I do not allow the cue to slip, however, and I now apply beeswax to my wrap to keep it tacky and prevent my cue from slipping from my hand and my throwing my cue down table (without wax, it happens). It is my belief that a loose grip and wrist action greatly contribute to spin/english. I have also found that when I grip the cue tightly, it kills CB action.

I am particularly interested to know why a loose grip will fire a CB up and a "death" grip kills CB action.
I really want to hear the answers to this....
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"It is my belief that a loose grip and wrist action greatly contribute to spin/english."

I would question the word "greatly", I think a lose grip and some wrist action contribute to spin--but how great this is is in question.
I don't think any of the mechanical cue swing contraptions has this kind of wrist action -- so we relly don't have the ability to measure a) was it the wrist action itself or b) was it simply the speed of the tip at contact. The pool player in me says wrist action, the physicist in my says tip speed. I generally believe the physicist more often than the pool player.

"I have also found that when I grip the cue tightly, it kills CB action."

This is undoubtably true.

Your having to apply bees wax to your wrap to increase friction intidates you might prefer a non wrapped cue. I have no wrap on my cue and simply let gravity hold the cue into my gently wrapped fingers--adding a touch of thumb pressure on the side as power increases.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you view a u tube video of Johhny Ervolino- you will see a slip stroke - during the warm up strokes the cue sort of slides back in the grip hand with each stroke until the cue stick is released towards the cue ball- and yes, the grip is vey light and the wrist is very loose. Old timers used it more than you see today by far. I think Cowboy Jimmy Moore may have also used a slip stroke and perhaps Cisero Murphy- all great 14.1 players.
 

Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Watch some old Corn Bread Red Videos (if you can find em)....might help you understand the movement. I'm not goin' there to try and explain it. Better yet, try and explain Allen Hopkins ''one of a kind'' swing.
 

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's all about contact velocity. If your cue stick is moving at the same speed at contact, the results will be the same.
BUT, it's harder to get a tight grip up to the same speed consistently and stay accurate.

randyg
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In my experience, CB action is...
  1. Knowing where to strike the cueball
  2. Having a stroke that actually strikes exactly that spot
  3. Giving it more force without sacrificing #2
All your fundamentals are about #2. If you jab a stroke and don’t follow through, your bicep tenses in anticipation of stopping the stroke and causes your tip to drop or raise. Same can be said of a firm grip, raising your head, dropping your shoulder, etc.

Trying to snap your wrist or do any other clever “technique” to improve #3 will most likely sacrifice #2. The secret to improving #3 is simplicity. Repetition builds muscle memory and control to higher levels. Think about how much less control you have with your non-dominant arm. It’s about slowly building the ability to calmly pull the stick back, pause for a smooth transition, and accelerate forward with as much control as possible.

There is no special maneuver to it. Going down that path is more likely to sacrifice #2.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I hate to bring up old subjects, especially ones I took a shot at before, but let me try again.

I just heard the term "slip stroke" for the first time, and I am wondering if it is related to my stroke. Over the years I developed a stroke which employs a very loose grip with definite wrist action. I do not allow the cue to slip, however, and I now apply beeswax to my wrap to keep it tacky and prevent my cue from slipping from my hand and my throwing my cue down table (without wax, it happens). It is my belief that a loose grip and wrist action greatly contribute to spin/english. I have also found that when I grip the cue tightly, it kills CB action.

I am particularly interested to know why a loose grip will fire a CB up and a "death" grip kills CB action.
Note: I am not a physicist, not a great player and the following post should be taken both with an open mind and with a grain of salt.

My guess is that with a "death grip" you're unintentionally treating the pool spheres as if they were 2D flat objects. You're pushing the tip through as if it were a flat surface. Loosening your grip equates to the sphere being treated like a sphere. (EDIT: and as a result contacting where you mean to) The tip contacts the spherical ball in a more natural motion, instead of trying to push through it at an off angle. Imagine when a miscue happens, I'd be willing to bet it's easier to miscue with a firm grip unless you're also accounting for the spheres being spheres and have a good stroke. With a death grip and a dead straight stroke, you're probably pinching the ball into the table some, or at least flirting with a miscue, good thing we have chalk. Think about this, when we miscue, it's usually on a hard (stroke, not difficulty) shot, and on a hard/fast shot we are probably gripping the butt tighter than on a finesse shot. I know I'm more apt to miscue on a break shot than on a tiny shot to float a ball in at pocket speed.

Loose grip should allow the tip to deflect off of the cue ball, reducing any unwanted stroke flaws. If you push it through tight, I feel as if any flaws will be magnified. I've found that many good players who have minimized their flaws do indeed have a tighter grip. The whole "dead level loose grip with follow through" that is preached to beginners has reasoning behind it, it's harder to mess up while shooting like that, though it is in a way like training wheels. You'll never lean into a curve and turn that small radius if you have training wheels on.

If you are ever close to a rail and HAVE to put draw on, you might notice you swipe the ball a bit, kind of a parabolic motion. You're definitely not treating the sphere as a 2D object. Look at the players with "natural" type strokes, especially the Filipino players. They stroke the ball, not only dead straight, but sometimes in a parabolic motion. Look at this:


Bustamante definitely strokes the ball great, but look at how he addresses the cue ball, as if it were a 3D object, not a 2D one. His stroke is absolutely beautiful, it's more exaggerated than most, but when you're hitting good, this is the kind of feel you get on the ball, not just poking a 2D object. If a beginner addressed the ball like this, an instructor would probably have a fit.

I'm not completely suggesting stroking in a parabolic motion, but it's a nice thought experiment. I'm sure if you get into the micro level of things it all has to do with how the tip glances off the CB but I have no idea how to confirm that. I guess what this long drawn out mess I've written is saying is, if it works for you, do it. There's nothing wrong with a loose grip, but once your confidence is up, try tightening it up and see what happens. Try it every once in a while.

EDIT: If a tight grip is killing CB action, I'd be willing to bet you're stroking it like a stop shot. You can make the cue ball stop even if you hit it above the equator... hint the entirety of your cue is also a 3D object which can pivot. Again, a loose grip diminishes any flaws along with the fact that tight muscles take more work to control than loose muscles.
 
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straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the only difference as far as a death grip will take you is tactile. What does happen is it prevents the top end of cue speed and therefore ball action. This includes the unique boing that only the unaugmented or unhindered (pick one) stick can produce That said I tend to think it is impossible to ram the cue ball - really butcher it with a loose grip. Weird.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
i havent read the replies but here is my answer to your question
if you grab the cue as it hits the cue ball
you choke its acceleration
 
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boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Not if you hit above the ball's "3D center" (its center of mass).

pj
chgo
I may have just been guilty of treating the 3D ball as a 2D object! 🤕 😂 You're right of course, I guess I was meaning if you elevated the butt in slight or strong masse type shots, but yeah, if you're over the center of mass/3D center it will follow. :)
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Same reason a whip creates such fast speed (breaking the sound barrier) when it's.. well.. whipped.

It's not so much the looseness of the stroke and the speed of the tip and the good follow through, the flinging of the cue with your wrist can be also done with a tighter but smooth stroke.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
What are the physics concepts describing the relationship between momentum (mass, speed?) and maintenance of course or path?

It occurs to me that once one "pulls the trigger" (stroking forward to contact CB) the cue's predetermined course or path is SET. Motion and path are provided by our learned, consistent, stroke, and we do not actively "steer" the cue with our hand -- rote stroke is in control. Wrist action, for some, is a learned, integral part of their stroke, developed and practiced over years of play -- just like some players develop their strokes without any wrist action. Wrist action which is a part of smooth, consistent stroke is simply that and, therefore, does not affect accuracy.

I do not know how to create an AZB Poll, but if someone who does agrees with me . . . I think it would be interesting to conduct a poll to determine the number of players whose stroke sometimes has an element of wrist action in proximity to tip/CB contact.
 
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hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What are the physics concepts describing the relationship between momentum (mass, speed?) and maintenance of course or path?

It occurs to me that once one "pulls the trigger" (stroking forward to contact CB) the cue's predetermined course or path is SET. Motion and path are provided by our learned, consistent, stroke, and we do not actively "steer" the cue with our hand -- rote stroke is in control. Wrist action, for some, is a learned, integral may be part of some folk's stroke, developed and practiced over years of play -- just like some players develop their strokes without any wrist action. Wrist action which is a part of smooth, consistent stroke is simply that and, therefore, does not affect accuracy.

I do not know how to create an AZB Poll, but if someone who does agrees with me . . . I think it would be interesting to conduct a poll to determine the number of players whose stroke sometimes has an element of wrist action in proximity to tip/CB contact.

Watch the videos of the players, there are several high level players that use the wrist for power vs the elbow. I think Carlo Biado may be one of the better ones to see this in action. I've seen a few players in my area shoot with almost all wrist no elbow where their wrist does the practice strokes and the arm is pretty still. Looks a bit odd but works OK for them.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
I have looked at Ervolino's and Cornbread Red's videos but I did not see real good shots of their strokes. The shoot zooms to the table alone or switches to overhead. I am going to try Biado.
 

Badpenguin

New member
When I'm dead stroke, which happens rarely nowadays, I often find myself falling into a slip stroke. Don't know if there is any correlation or not, or which leads to which. Regardless, my theory is that a slip stroke helps eliminate sideways movement in my wrist or arm, allowing for a more accurate hit on the cue ball. Kind of hard for the wrist to swing or elbow to drop while the cue is basically being thrown through the air at the cue ball instead of guided. But it is also a stroke I can't force or make myself use, it depends on how in-stroke I am in and usually I don't even realize I'm using it.

See
 
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