SloMoHolic camera fund

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, who wants to buy him that $6,000 camera? I've seen some of the home room pictures we have here, so I know there are quite a few members that can pull 6k out of their couch cushions LOL

Do we have 60 members that will put up $100 for this?

I have a laptop I'm about to put up on ebay, it should sell for $250, I figure after ebay and paypal rape me a bit, I'll have $150 to put toward the camera, if we get some pledges, I'll be happy to add that towards the camera, I think the work he puts in for the videos is worth a bit of support.

Since Dr Dave said he no longer has access to the camera he used, there is also that resource that can use the video this thing will produce. Just think of a collection of slow motion hits using all the LD shafts on the market with contact points on the rail to show exactly how much each moves the cueball and how the shaft vibrates on impact.

One thing I wanted to mention to everybody: Keep in mind that my SloMo cameras max out at 1000 fps, and at that frame rate, the resolution is very very low. Since tip-to-CB contact time is in the range of 1/1000th of a second, I doubt that we'll be able to glean much information about variations in contact duration using these cameras. I really think we'd need a framerate of at least 10,000 frames per second to be able to make use of any tip-contact-time experiments.

I've had my eye on a new $6000 SloMo camera that can go up to 18,000 frames per second with decent resolution (as well as very good frame rates even in HD). Before this model was introduced, you'd have to pay a minimum of $25,000 to get a camera with that framerate. Hmmmm.... There seem to be several pool-related Kickstarters popping up these days. Perhaps... Maybe... I can dream, can't I? lol ;)

Seriously though, thanks again for the ideas. I'll definitely be challenging my pool game as well as my video skills for this project!

-Blake
 
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So, who wants to buy him that $6,000 camera? I've seen some of the home room pictures we have here, so I know there are quite a few members that can pull 6k out of their couch cushions LOL

Do we have 60 members that will put up $100 for this?

I have a laptop I'm about to put up on ebay, it should sell for $250, I figure after ebay and paypal rape me a bit, I'll have $150 to put toward the camera, if we get some pledges, I'll be happy to add that towards the camera, I think the work he puts in for the videos is worth a bit of support.

Since Dr Dave said he no longer has access to the camera he used, there is also that resource that can use the video this thing will produce. Just think of a collection of slow motion hits using all the LD shafts on the market with contact points on the rail to show exactly how much each moves the cueball and how the shaft vibrates on impact.

Wow, that is quite an idea. I'm not sure what to say, but I'll give it a shot.

If this happens, I would certainly be willing to commit to doing weekly video episodes for the benefit of the pool community. Maybe a "shot of the week," or interviews and demonstrations from highly skilled and/or professional players, or any other cool ideas we could come up with.

Of course, I'd also use the camera to put together some of the more cinematic-style videos whose purpose is simply to promote and share the beauty of the game.

With all the welders, machinists, scientists, and engineers that enjoy pool, maybe we could even build another cue testing machine. We could test regular cues, jump cues, break cues, tips, template racks, and just anything else that needs testing.

Obviously, I enjoy this line of work (pool + video), and would take great satisfaction in making an even greater visual contribution to the pool of knowledge that we all try so hard to comprehend.

I would be shocked, humbled, and at the service of the community if this happens.

Thanks again for such a generous thought.

-Blake
 
Post

Everyone should donate a dollar or two and we'd Bo good to go~>!
Who's starting the go fund me!?



Rob.M
 
Everyone should donate a dollar or two and we'd Bo good to go~>!
Who's starting the go fund me!?



Rob.M

I would not use the go fund me site, they take a portion for them. We've had good results to just have a PayPal account used for the collection, although that would depend on someone that we can all trust with a few thousand.

And if "everyone" donated even $5 or $10 I can see this camera getting bought, but not a lot of people actually donate if we look at the number of members.
 
I love slow motion pool video. Put me down for $50. It will only take 149 more $50-contributions to make it happen.

Of course, the number of contributors needed gets reduced significantly if someone "of means" donates $500 or more.

Out of curiousity, how many frames-per-second do you need to do quality slow motion of pool shots? i.e. is a $6,000 camera overkill or bare minimum?
 
Wow, that is quite an idea. I'm not sure what to say, but I'll give it a shot.

If this happens, I would certainly be willing to commit to doing weekly video episodes for the benefit of the pool community. Maybe a "shot of the week," or interviews and demonstrations from highly skilled and/or professional players, or any other cool ideas we could come up with.

Of course, I'd also use the camera to put together some of the more cinematic-style videos whose purpose is simply to promote and share the beauty of the game.

With all the welders, machinists, scientists, and engineers that enjoy pool, maybe we could even build another cue testing machine. We could test regular cues, jump cues, break cues, tips, template racks, and just anything else that needs testing.

Obviously, I enjoy this line of work (pool + video), and would take great satisfaction in making an even greater visual contribution to the pool of knowledge that we all try so hard to comprehend.

I would be shocked, humbled, and at the service of the community if this happens.

Thanks again for such a generous thought.

-Blake

I would be willing to chip in a $100.00
Also, the cue testing machine would be right up my alley, I have been thinking about building one.
 
I would be willing to chip in a $100.00
Also, the cue testing machine would be right up my alley, I have been thinking about building one.

The shaft testing has been such a common topic that if someone can manage to get a good test setup and we have something to record it with, it will make for quite an interesting thread once the results are posted.

Robot level accuracy of hit force and contact point on each test, with a recording that can pick out every dust particle that flies off the cueball on contact, yep, good stuff.
 
NOTE: This is a VERY long post, but I'd appreciate you taking a few minutes to read it. Some of it gets a little technical, but I have tried to make it as understandable as possible. I also have tried to illustrate the various reasons that I believe the acquisition of this camera might be a momentous occasion, marking the beginning of a new era in the history of pool.

I love slow motion pool video. Put me down for $50. It will only take 149 more $50-contributions to make it happen.

Of course, the number of contributors needed gets reduced significantly if someone "of means" donates $500 or more.

Thank you!

Out of curiousity, how many frames-per-second do you need to do quality slow motion of pool shots? i.e. is a $6,000 camera overkill or bare minimum?

That is a fair question, and deserves a substantial response. So.....

Here it is, everything you could want to know about high-speed "slow motion" cameras, and why I believe this camera will deliver ground-breaking results...

Normal videos, like the ones we see on the internet, are typically shot at 30 frames per second. They are also played at 30 frames per second. Slow motion video is shot at a higher frame rate (for example, 240 frames per second), but played back at 30 frames per second. For the 240 fps example, that means the video will play back at 1/8th of real time. In other words, a break shot that was filmed for 5 seconds would take 40 seconds to watch. This allows us to see what's happening in much greater detail than a normal video would.

I like to think of frame rates in terms of what our human eyes can perceive. Human eyes typically perceive motion at an equivalent of somewhere between 30-60 frames per second. Most TV shows and internet videos are shot and displayed at 24 or 30 frames per second. These "normal speed" videos simply allow us to review what we may have been able to see and understand in real time.

Let's start with a normal video and work our way up to very high-speed video.

For our example, let's say we filmed a simple, straight-back bank shot. As the bank shot happens in real time, we can clearly see that the object ball is driven into a rail, then across the table into the opposite pocket. Not much to it...

If we watch a 30 fps video of this, we'll just be reviewing what we already saw.

If we jump to 120 fps, we might notice the object ball picking up natural roll on its way to the rail.

At 240 fps, we would be able to see how much spin the OB has as it enters and leaves the cushion. We may even be able to catch a glimpse of the shape of the deformation of the cushion at the moment of impact.

At 420 fps, we can start to see things that are basically invisible to us in real time. We may notice a cloud of chalk particles swarming around after the cue tip hits the CB.

At 600 fps, we may be able to actually see the subtly curved path that the OB takes on its way to the pocket.

So far, these frame rates are helping us gain a better understanding of things that we already know are happening from our own observations in real time. They just help us see those things with more clarity.

As we approach 1000 fps, we start to notice things that we were previously completely unable to see, like the OB rising off of the cloth/slate ever so slightly as it rebounds out of the rail.

At 2500 fps, perhaps we could begin to gain a general understanding of how the cue tip compresses as it strikes the cue ball.

At 5000 fps, we could perhaps begin to visualize the difference between a very hard tip and a very soft tip.

At 10,000 fps, we can begin to actually measure the duration of tip-to-ball contact.

At even higher frame rates, who knows what we'll see? To my knowledge, nobody has ever approached the 20,000 fps mark in any sort of cuesports video.

I've shot (literally) thousands of slow motion videos of various pool shots. Some shots, like a simple bank or jump shot, look great at around 240 fps. Others, like the wing ball leaving the 9-ball rack and heading towards the pocket, still defy comprehension even at 1000 fps. In one frame, the ball is tightly racked; In the next frame, it has already moved past the "4th row" ball and is heading towards the pocket.

How does that wing ball get past that 4th ball? We honestly don't know. There are various theories floating around - maybe the 4th ball moves out of the way before the wing ball begins moving, or maybe there is some kind of spin or even compression of the phenolic resin.

The truth is that we simply don't know for sure. There are many types of shots in pool and billiards that remain unexplained (or at least unproven). Just because we may know how to shoot them, it doesn't mean we fully understand them.

My goal is to illuminate the movements, deformities, interactions, and unknown actions that dictate the principles of various types of shots.

So far, I believe I've been able to shed some light on several areas of uncertainty, such as object ball skids, jump shots, masse shots, cue ball reaction to break shots, and collision-induced throw and spin.

However, there is a frontier in front of us, beyond which no scientist or pool player has ever been able to fully comprehend. This 18,000 fps camera certainly won't answer all of our questions, but it will definitely extend the frontier of our knowledge through observation.


About Slow Motion Cameras

Slow motion cameras are special because of their designed capability to record massive amounts of data at very high transfer rates. In fact, most high speed cameras use an extremely high speed memory buffer to temporarily store the information until it can be saved onto the relatively low-speed storage media, such as SD cards.

When this "data pipeline" is filled and maxed out, recording stops. That's why most high speed cameras can only record for short periods of time. There is just so much data that when the temporary storage is full, there is no place for additional data to go.

As a result of this pipeline, there is a trade-off between frame rate and resolution. The faster the frame rate, the lower the video resolution. For example, let's compare the frame rates and resolutions of the two high speed cameras I now own (versus some well-known benchmarks):

Full HD TV: 1920x1080 at 30 fps
Regular HD: 1280x720 at 30 fps

My current high speed cameras:
1280x720 at 30 fps
640x480 at 120 fps
448x336 at 240 fps
224x168 at 420 fps
224x56 at 1000 fps

As you can see, by the time my cameras crank up to 1000 fps, the resolution is so tiny that it becomes hard to see what's even going on in the video. You may be familiar with the term Megapixels as it relates to photography, so let's think of it that way. simply put, a pixel is a dot. The more dots available, the clearer the picture.

High-quality DSLR still camera: ~25 MP
Full HD: 2.1 MP
Reg HD: 0.9 MP
120 fps: 0.3 MP
240 fps: 0.15 MP
420 fps: 0.04 MP
1000 fps: 0.01 MP

Here's what I'm getting at. Even if we were able to quantify something like tip-ball contact duration in the range of 1000 fps, the resolution is so low that it is difficult to even see when the tip makes contact with (and disengages from) the cue ball.

Now, let's have a look at the specs of this brand new high-speed camera that costs $6000. This camera is very flexible in terms of frame rate and resolution, but here are some examples of actual settings that are available on this monster:

1280x1024 at 500 fps
1024x720 at 700 fps
640x480 at 1850 fps
320x240 at 5725 fps
192x96 at 18,000 fps

That means we can get near-HD quality at 700 frames per second, yet with the same camera, we could capture 18,000 frames per second in a resolution that, while not necessarily pretty, would be sufficient for research purposes to accurately measure actual tip to ball contact time, potentially solve the conundrum of the 9-ball rack's wing ball, or even expose some new areas to research.

In addition to the frame rate and resolution, there are some very important factors relating to sensor size, light sensitivity, and lens availability that complement the raw processing power of high speed cameras. This particular camera rates VERY highly in all three categories. I'll save those topics for another time. This is already long enough! :)

BOTTOM LINE:
I honestly and absolutely believe that if the pool community gains access to a camera like this...

We will be capable of breaking new ground in understanding pool nearly every single day. We could settle long-debated issues, learn brand new, never-before-dreamed-of details of how pool balls deform, and gain incredibly valuable insight into the entirety of the tip-ball interaction.

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I'm telling you, this would quite literally be a game changer.

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Also, the sheer beauty of 700 fps HD pool footage would probably make most of us shed tears of joy when we first see it. Imagine seeing Shane Van Boening's 10-ball break in HD at 23x slower than real time. If that doesn't give you chills, you should probably check your pulse. :)

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Fortunately, I have everything else that would be required to fully utilize a camera of this caliber. From storage space, to computer power, to video editing and analysis software, to extremely bright lights (see below), to tripods, sliders, jibs, steadicams, and all kinds of other equipment.

But most importantly, I have what I consider to be a fairly specialized level of knowledge and experience. After decades of shooting video as a hobby, I've done forensic-level video analysis for the police department for nearly 10 years, and I derive the majority of my income from producing and selling nature videos (many of which are in SloMo!) to networks such as National Geographic, NatGeo channel, Discovery, BBC America, BBC UK, and even the Smithsonian Institution.

I'm also a pretty good pool player. I'd say A-level on a good day, B+ on average. Although I'm not as consistent as I'd like to be, I am at least capable of shooting extremely difficult shots (albeit not always on the first try!). Check out the slow motion pool playlist on my YouTube channel to judge for yourself. Just search for SloMoHolic on YouTube.

And last but not least, to be perfectly honest, I truly feel like my mission in life is to study, capture, and share the beauty of this game with all of my fellow pool players. I feel like I've been heading in the right direction with pool photography, live streaming, and my current library of slomo videos, but ...

Acquiring a camera like this would basically allow me to fulfill my purpose in life.

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If you've made it this far, thanks for reading this. I hope it wasn't too confusing, but I hope it helps you to understand exactly WHY I am so passionate about this camera, as well as slow motion video in general.

Thank you to all that have voiced your support so far. I would be honored to carry the torch of slow motion pool videos into the next era of knowledge, with the collaboration and support of the entire pool community, especially our pool family on AZ Billiards.

Sincerely,

-Blake Ormand

To see some of my work, visit these sites:
Videos: www.YouTube.com/SloMoHolic
Photos: www.BlakeOrmand.com
 
...I would be honored to carry the torch of slow motion pool videos into the next era of knowledge, with the collaboration and support of the entire pool community, especially our pool family on AZ Billiards. ...

Thanks for all the info, Blake. A few questions:

• What is the make and model of the camera you are considering?

• Where does the $6,000 camera rank in the current array of slo-mo cameras in terms of features, capabilities, and price?

• Can such cameras be rented reasonably? Would it make any sense to plan/compile shot lists or experiments over a period of time and then rent the camera occasionally to address those issues?

• If the $6,000 camera were purchased, what would the expected usable life span be before a newer/better one would be desired? Does technology change frequently for these?

• Is there a market for used slo-mo cameras of high quality?
 
Thanks for all the info, Blake. A few questions...


These are also well-thought-out and legitimate questions (all of which I've asked myself many times lol). Allow me to defer for now and address those when I get home with a proper keyboard in front of me. :)

-Blake
 
Good questions. See my responses below...

Thanks for all the info, Blake. A few questions:

• What is the make and model of the camera you are considering?

Edgertronic high speed video camera with the following specs:
- Color, 8GB Buffer, stock 50mm lens

One additional Nikon F-mount Lens (probably a midrange zoom)

Camera = $5495
Shipping = $50
Extra lens = ~$500+/-

http://edgertronic.com/


• Where does the $6,000 camera rank in the current array of slo-mo cameras in terms of features, capabilities, and price?

For years, there has been a pretty large gap between consumer-level slow motion cameras and professional slow motion cameras. The "top of the line prosumer" cameras are about $800 new, and the "bottom of the line professional" cameras are in the range of about $25,000 (if you already have lenses and all the other accessories).

Some of the mid-range cinematic digital cameras, like the RED series, are starting to get into some decent frame rates (~300 fps), but they are primarily designed as normal-speed cameras, and don't have many of the features specific to true high-speed cameras, such as mid- and post-triggers.

Olympus has a mid-range line of high speed cameras available, but they were mostly geared towards manufacturing engineers, failure analysis, and always-on operation.

About a year ago, Edgertronic began selling their high speed camera at the $5495 price point, right in that niche between consumer and professional high speed cameras.

The Edgertronic cameras are designed to use quality lenses, produce very high quality slow motion video (in terms of sensor quality, frame rate, light sensitivity, and resolution), yet cost as little as possible.

They don't have SDI outputs, a viewfinder, an LCD screen, or any other fancy stuff. It's just a box with a couple of basic ports holding a very high quality sensor. All the settings are controlled through a web browser, although it does have a port for a remote recording trigger.

• Can such cameras be rented reasonably? Would it make any sense to plan/compile shot lists or experiments over a period of time and then rent the camera occasionally to address those issues?

Renting a Phantom Flex for one day will cost around $5000, and they are often only available in several-day packages. Granted, the Flex is a high-end professional high speed camera, but again, there just aren't many alternative high speed cameras worth renting. They all cost several thousand per day. The Sony FS700 (which is cheaper to rent) does have some basic slomo capabilities, but at high speeds, its resolution and frame rates aren't a whole lot better than the consumer alternatives.

By the way, just to establish a frame of reference in terms of quality/cost - all of my existing slomo videos were shot on the "near top of the line prosumer" models. That's why the resolution is so limited, especially at higher frame rates.

• If the $6,000 camera were purchased, what would the expected usable life span be before a newer/better one would be desired? Does technology change frequently for these?

First, a quick note about the construction of the camera: All the reviews I've read and watched so far have been extremely positive about the durability of this camera, because it is such a simple device. The Nikon F Mount series of lenses were chosen because they are completely manual (aperture and focus). The camera doesn't even have any buttons. Every function is monitored and controlled entirely over Ethernet. It's basically a metal box with a sensor and the essential circuitry in it. In terms of durability, I tend to think it will probably outlast its "useful" life.

Also, I added the cost of a zoom lens because at some point, this camera will probably be used to film some pretty aggressive pool shots, and I've learned my lesson in the past - the camera needs to be set up at a safe distance from the table. (I accidentally smashed one of my cameras once with an 8 ball.)

FWIW, The Edgertronic warranty is for 1 year.

Back to your usable-life question, there hasn't been much movement in the high speed camera industry, and I don't expect a lot of change any time soon. I read that Edgertronic is already developing a second camera model that will be in the upper-mid price range, probably $15,000 or so. Beyond that, I guess I've really only noticed three recent trends in slow motion:

1. The introduction and spread of more and more low-end consumer slow motion cameras (usually not very high speed) such as in smartphones and GoPro cameras.

2. The disappearance of prosumer-grade high speed cameras such as the ones I own. These and most of their competing models have been discontinued.

3. Better and better very-high-end cameras. The Phantom series from Vision Research has broken the million fps barrier, but those kinds of cameras start in the hundreds of thousands for a fully functional unit.

The Edgertronic is really the only game in town for the low-to-mid-range high speed camera market. It has user-updatable firmware as well, so I don't foresee it becoming obsolete within the next decade, at least.

• Is there a market for used slo-mo cameras of high quality?

I did a lot of shopping around for used high speed cameras about 4 years ago. There were some used cameras that could get to about 4000 fps but most of the lower end models used a square aspect ratio, had monochrome sensors, and were still priced at $8000 and up. There is a pretty high level of demand for used higher-end high speed cameras, so their prices really don't deflate much.

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I can recommend a couple of YouTube channels, if you'd like to see samples of what this camera is capable of. (the below channel names are hyperlinked)

Haoyan of America - bizarre videos but they demonstrate the more cinematic style of 720p @ 700 fps

Chaos311Clarity - gun and ammo reviews, many of which include more technical slomo clips with higher fps and "lower" resolution

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I hope that all makes sense. I'd be happy to share my opinion on any other questions that come up.

:)

-Blake
 
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Have you budgeted for lighting? I imagine you'll need a few lumens of light to shoot at 18,000 fps. Of course, maybe that can easily be rented. Just thinking.
 
How does the Edgertronic camera compare to the one used for the Austrian billiard video? Any possibility of infrared?

I don't know which camera was used for that Austrian video, but after watching it again, we can make some estimates. Most of the (non-infrared) clips appear to be shot at between 1000 to 2000 fps (based on the flickering of the light sources). The resolution appears to be around 640x480 from a quick visual examination of a few paused frames.

The Edgertronic can also shoot 640x480 at 2500 fps. The advantage with the Edgertronic is that we have more choices in terms of frame rate and resolution combinations. The Austrian camera likely maxed out at 640x480 @ 2000 fps, whereas the output of Edgertronic can be adjusted along the data pipeline "axis." What I mean is that if we don't need 2000 fps for a particular shot, we can increase the resolution (up to 1280x1024). If we are more interested in just seeing what happens, rather than image quality, we can lower the resolution and crank up the frame rate (up to 18,000 fps). In terms of both frame rate and resolution, the Edgertronic is far more capable.

In terms of overall image quality, it's hard to say without a side-by-side comparison. Lighting, ISO/ASA settings, light sensitivity ratings, and video compression technology make all the difference in the world for high speed video. The Edgertronic uses onboard H.264 compression at a data rate of 20 Mbps. As a comparison point, most live streams (even the ones we watch in HD) are around 1-3 Mbps. The extra Mbps make a huge difference in the quality we can maintain in videos as they go through the final compression stages for internet delivery.

Based on the samples I've seen, the image quality of the Edgertronic is top notch. It also helps that it uses Nikon F-mount lenses, which are widely used specifically for cinematic video cameras.

Unfortunately, there is no option for infrared at this time.

-Blake
 
Have you budgeted for lighting? I imagine you'll need a few lumens of light to shoot at 18,000 fps. Of course, maybe that can easily be rented. Just thinking.

Good question. Lighting is critical for high speed video. Not only do the lights need to be bright, but they need to have a very high refresh rate. Normal light bulbs actually flicker at 60 Hz, so once you shoot at a frame rate above that, the flickering becomes noticeable in the slowed-down video.

I like to use Halogen lamps for my slow motion videos because they refresh at about 40kHz. Even at the max frame rate on this camera, they won't show any flickering in the final video.

I currently have up to 2600 Watts of Halogen lamps available, but 300 to 600 Watts is usually enough. I believe that the full 2600W will be sufficiently bright for 18,000 frames per second, but of course, I can't say for sure yet.

-Blake
 
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