4" may seem easier this event because of the climate, but i don't see much slop. i'd say it's well calibrated.
Small pockets ruining the game
- Thread starter smiling_Hans
- Start date
4" may seem easier this event because of the climate, but i don't see much slop. i'd say it's well calibrated.
Say personal error tolerances instead of "slop zone" It's still the slop zone and <THAT'S> the difference those fractions are making. The best have developed their performance to a higher level than the sorta good enough pretender crowd is all.
Never seen/heard anyone cheer, laugh or whatever when a player has the misfortune of having his opponent completely crap in a ball, on the truly professional scene. The one exception being the Mosconi Cup. That's a unicorn exhibition event all of it's own.
Ah, I'm sensing an element "get off my lawn punk"...
Pesky whipper snappers and that damn interwebsCorey most certainly was at the very least. Unfortunately he has been left in the dust. John, well..., he did have that major win. Hard to argue against that.
Blowing this out of proportion imo. You're assuming that the bulk of the audience has any clue, and the presence of mind to wonder if the pockets are 4 instead of 4-1/16th (for example). Like anything else about the game is something they can relate to. The quality of table, cloth, intense lighting, cameras pointed at you from every direction. People world wide having access to seeing your potential bad play. There's less to relate to then there is common ground.
Reality here is, some have found a torch to light and are running around screaming the sky is falling. A line was drawn when MR went full bore into the promotion of a real 9b professional tour. Since then, what became before is moot. Smarter, more experienced and better financed people are now making the decisions. The harsh reality is... MR would most likely rather lose a spattering of old schoolers that didn't support the original game they "loved" well enough, in the hope of cultivating a new breed of fan base that thinks the new version is the way it's meant to be played and support it.
From the lips of a man so desperate to perform like a pro he'd step on the throat of his own integrity. If John had his way. He'd also advocate the issuing mulligans to players who last name started with Schmid...
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NineballTom
Member
Pro player plays against average player on 4.5 inch pockets: pro looks like a pro, average player looks like average playerNever seen/heard anyone cheer, laugh or whatever when a player has the misfortune of having his opponent completely crap in a ball, on the truly professional scene. The one exception being the Mosconi Cup. That's a unicorn exhibition event all of it's own.
Ah, I'm sensing an element "get off my lawn punk"...
Corey most certainly was at the very least. Unfortunately he has been left in the dust. John, well..., he did have that major win. Hard to argue against that.
Blowing this out of proportion imo. You're assuming that the bulk of the audience has any clue, and the presence of mind to wonder if the pockets are 4 instead of 4-1/16th (for example). Like anything else about the game is something they can relate to. The quality of table, cloth, intense lighting, cameras pointed at you from every direction. People world wide having access to seeing your potential bad play. There's less to relate to then there is common ground.
Reality here is, some have found a torch to light and are running around screaming the sky is falling. A line was drawn when MR went full bore into the promotion of a real 9b professional tour. Since then, what became before is moot. Smarter, more experienced and better financed people are now making the decisions. The harsh reality is... MR would most likely rather lose a spattering of old schoolers that didn't support the original game they "loved" well enough, in the hope of cultivating a new breed of fan base that thinks the new version is the way it's meant to be played and support it.
From the lips of a man so desperate to perform like a pro he'd step on the throat of his own integrity. If John had his way. He'd also advocate the issuing mulligans to players who last name started with Schmid...
Pro plays against average player on 4 inch pockets: Pro looks like Pro, average guy looks like a slightly lesser version of average self.
Pro plays against Pro on 4 inch pockets: both guys still look professional but struggling slightly more on tighter pockets.
2 average guys on 4 inch pockets: struggles all around.
I'm not seeing a net positive here at all. I'm just an average pool player. But I do believe that the basis for any professional sport is taking the amateur game, giving it standardized rules and equipment, and seeing who can master the game at the highest level..... not taking the game and just making it insanely more difficult than it was before.
However, if I ever do meet Steph Curry, I will remind him that if he really wants to look like a pro he will shoot through a smaller basket.....
Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
I don't care what size we decide upon, but it does seem it would be better for everyone, and especially pool room owners, if we had a single standard of what a competition pool table looks like. Otherwise identical tables running anywhere from 4 to 4.75 is really annoying if you travel around at all. On your home table, do what you want. For competition, can we please get a standard?
There's always that crowd of enabled hot dogs whose only vision is to destroy the competition. Worked for Strickland...
ok boomer
Pro player looks like a god. The presence of the average player (any player) is moot because they don't get to play. <--Reality
Pro player looks like a pro player. When the average player now gets to the table, they look like a complete beginner. <--How it should look
Both players get opportunities. Both players appear professional because they are both pros and are suffering the same difficulties. However, we do get to see a combative contest, rather than a runout-fest.
I don't know why the average joe would want to play on equipment set up for professional contest. Other than to test their ability against what pros face. Much like a 30 handicap opting to hit from the black tees.
This is where you personal bias is at play. YOU think the amateur game should dictate the professional version. That somehow the conditions that pros endure makes or breaks the amateur participation. Not sure why that is. Has the APA, TAP, etc, membership numbers dropped since the WNT used 4" pockets..? Your argument is based in a falsehood. ...Or at the very least something that hasn't happened. The vast majority of the amateur game in NA is played on smaller tables entirely, but you're hanging your hat on pocket size...lol
What I'm trying to tell you that the professional version has been under a rewrite for the last few years. "Professional Pool" of this era is still under development. That doesn't mean the amateur version needs to change at all. Just that pros on amateur equipment does not make for an entertaining contest. You seem to prefer the professional game suffer for sake of making amateurs feel good about themselves...? All that really needs to happen is for amateurs to realize they aren't as good as pros, and shouldn't expect to challenge as if they were.
Tell ya what... If you can sell a version of the professional game to Matchroom wherein the players get to deal with their opponent waving a hand in their faces while they shoot. I'll sign your petition to get the pro pocket sizes to match your local room's.However, if I ever do meet Steph Curry, I will remind him that if he really wants to look like a pro he will shoot through a smaller basket.....
Take it up another notch and increase the density of the balls, this way players have to work harder and potentially need more cues because of the wear an
Every force has an opposite and equal reaction. I hope to live to see the day a cue stick is broken while stroking a cue ball.
Its like in Hockey when players started using high speed collisions to take out players.
Requiring a higher initial force on the stroke is more beneficial to selling more equipment.
Tight pockets have always been discussed and now that Matchroom is doing it, that leaves openings for more variations in local rooms. It is easier to add more challenging balls to a pool room than it is to replace rails on a table.
Product development and competition standards should support each other.
Every force has an opposite and equal reaction. I hope to live to see the day a cue stick is broken while stroking a cue ball.
Its like in Hockey when players started using high speed collisions to take out players.
Requiring a higher initial force on the stroke is more beneficial to selling more equipment.
Tight pockets have always been discussed and now that Matchroom is doing it, that leaves openings for more variations in local rooms. It is easier to add more challenging balls to a pool room than it is to replace rails on a table.
Product development and competition standards should support each other.
Ah, and the crux of it. Pool room owners.....
For sake of the discussion, I'm going to declare that 4.25" is now the professional standard. Moving forward, all WNT events will be played only on equipment having 4.25 pockets. Guess that fixed everything. I imagine now all the pool room owners are converting their tables over and by the end of the month we should all be enjoying competition ready tables at our local taverns.
Oh ya, that's right. Pool room owners couldn't care less what the professional standard is. Whether it be 4, 4.25 or 5". However now that we've locked down the pro spec's. We should all be turning our pitch forks toward room owners...?.... right? Next step is an amateur players union so we can force room owners into adhering to the pro standard.
Truth is..., the professional 'standard' for competition has zero bearing on what the overwhelming amateur majority will be playing on in the future. I'd be amazed if >25% of the local tourneys in NA have even adopted racking with the 9 on the spot.
The Karens here are just fixated on a number because they believe they have an understanding of the dynamics revolving around that number. Anyone fretting over pocket size have any idea what the miter angles are..?.., the downward angle...? ....how about the actual shelf depth...? Those 3 variables also play a large role in how difficult a table plays. Weird how it never seems to be apart of these discussions though.
NineballTom
Member
Well first
Well I'm just gonna say about that last part, I don't support sharking at any level, pro or amateur. And lastly I'm gonna say that we are clearly miles apart on this and would never agree...... I'm sure that we will be debating again some day on a different issue.
Wayne Crimi
Member
My issue with tighter pockets and tougher tables is not that elite tournament level players want to play on them. They know the better players have an advantage with tighter pockets and on tougher tables. So of course the very best players will tend to want tigher pockets so there are fewer upsets. My issue is the entire industry moving in that direction. Beginniners and intermediate players derive pleasure from this game by making and runnng balls. I think 4" pockets are too tough for that level of player and more likely to discourage them from playing and enjoyng it enough to get serious about it. If I owned a poolroom with no high level action players I'd have all 4 5/8 pockets. If I had a high action room with tournaments I might split it between 4 and 4 5/8 if the best players wanted 4", but I'd never ever have all 4".
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i hate these tables, at the pool room all the 450-500 fargos are glued to them gasping
how did i miss that shot!!!
how did i miss that shot!!!
Pool has an issue, there is no way for a fast cheap change of pocket sizes. Reducers don't really serve the purpose. What the big tournament is played on maybe a few times a year in a big hall is the same thing the paying customers are going to play on roughly the other 90% of the time. Do you try to please the top ten percent of the entries in the big tournament or do you try to please the people that pay the bills and make the big tournament possible?
I don't like it but the worst most annoying customers are the ones that pay the bills. The great Greenways in Baton Rouge went away because a tavern type place with maybe eight tables was put in almost directly in front of it. The tavern was loud, best I recall it was smoky, I think they tried bands there. The new owners put different colored cloth on every table. They did have to pull the obnoxious colors in a few months. The place that no serious player wanted any part of took the date night business Greenway had for many years. Fortunately Lambert didn't need the money because a snowball stand would have grossed more than Greenway!
A tour with traveling tables could use anything they wanted to. Fixed venues need to pay attention to what pays the bills. Around here the trend tends to be towards seven foot Diamonds with one "big" nine footer.
I want a ten to play on, any poclet size between four and four and five-eighth is fine. I haven't seen a place with all ten footers since the early eighties so I ain't exactly holding my breath!
Hu
I don't like it but the worst most annoying customers are the ones that pay the bills. The great Greenways in Baton Rouge went away because a tavern type place with maybe eight tables was put in almost directly in front of it. The tavern was loud, best I recall it was smoky, I think they tried bands there. The new owners put different colored cloth on every table. They did have to pull the obnoxious colors in a few months. The place that no serious player wanted any part of took the date night business Greenway had for many years. Fortunately Lambert didn't need the money because a snowball stand would have grossed more than Greenway!
A tour with traveling tables could use anything they wanted to. Fixed venues need to pay attention to what pays the bills. Around here the trend tends to be towards seven foot Diamonds with one "big" nine footer.
I want a ten to play on, any poclet size between four and four and five-eighth is fine. I haven't seen a place with all ten footers since the early eighties so I ain't exactly holding my breath!
Hu
the old rooms that had a 10 footer , that table had 90% of the one pocket action on it.
let the pros do whatever they want with pockets or whatever. they are pro tournaments. but dont bring it into the local pool rooms.
unfortunately so many want to be pros in their minds and want their equipment.
let the pros do whatever they want with pockets or whatever. they are pro tournaments. but dont bring it into the local pool rooms.
unfortunately so many want to be pros in their minds and want their equipment.
The wannabes want the equipment but then they whine like hell. I have seen a handful of pool halls give people what they begged for then the people were unhappy when they couldn't pocket a ball. Next step, modify the inner rail angles and the relief angles on the cushions. Then add a slight decline into each pocket starting about an inch and a half out. Fools, drunks, and nonplayers will love these tables. Tight pockets and they are playing like Willie Mosconi!
Hu
Solid reasoning. I'd take a rack of regular balls and put them on a snooker table in order to fine tune the stroke and back off the pedal I'm so fond of pressing.
Pocket size limits what you can do with your stroke in some cases.
You can't cheat them a diamond high anymore. Gotta split the wicket. (Or whatever our partners in crime across the pond call it.)
It's a totally different game, imo. You won't see players making certain shots anymore bcuz they're unmakeable on a tight hole. Trims down the stroke.
Sadly I must agree.Never seen/heard anyone cheer, laugh or whatever when a player has the misfortune of having his opponent completely crap in a ball, on the truly professional scene. The one exception being the Mosconi Cup. That's a unicorn exhibition event all of it's own.
Ah, I'm sensing an element "get off my lawn punk"...
Corey most certainly was at the very least. Unfortunately he has been left in the dust. John, well..., he did have that major win. Hard to argue against that.
Blowing this out of proportion imo. You're assuming that the bulk of the audience has any clue, and the presence of mind to wonder if the pockets are 4 instead of 4-1/16th (for example). Like anything else about the game is something they can relate to. The quality of table, cloth, intense lighting, cameras pointed at you from every direction. People world wide having access to seeing your potential bad play. There's less to relate to then there is common ground.
Reality here is, some have found a torch to light and are running around screaming the sky is falling. A line was drawn when MR went full bore into the promotion of a real 9b professional tour. Since then, what became before is moot. Smarter, more experienced and better financed people are now making the decisions. The harsh reality is... MR would most likely rather lose a spattering of old schoolers that didn't support the original game they "loved" well enough, in the hope of cultivating a new breed of fan base that thinks the new version is the way it's meant to be played and support it.
From the lips of a man so desperate to perform like a pro he'd step on the throat of his own integrity. If John had his way. He'd also advocate the issuing mulligans to players who last name started with Schmid...
Most of the new audience hasn't a clue what's going on. What they see now is what pool to them will be for their generation.
A totally different game.
He or 'She' who has the marbles makes the rules.
Gotta say this is still the marketing angle. You guys want to breed out the champs? That's the corporate play. There are alternatives like education. Ko/Chang and the unidentified horde apparently had pool as part of public education. No harm in learning the ideals of the craft; except to the predator class. Repeatedly saying tight pockets are no good because the customer base doesn't exist, is pretty lame.
It's not the pockets. It's the marketeering crowd that thinks people are food. People like that need to forget pool and buy a fleet of taco trucks and a block of bars.