Snooker vs. Pool

BJTyler

AzB Member
Silver Member
Over the past several months, there have been numerous posts and threads comparing and contrasting Snooker to American pool. The far from unanimous consensus seems to be that:

Snooker relies much more on cueing fundamentals than pool, and in general, pool players (especially those of the American variety) do not have the mastery of these fundamentals required to compete successfully at snooker at the highest levels.

Without going into a debate over the validity of this statement, I'd like to know (especially from snooker players) exactly which cueing fundamentals are deficient in American pool players?

The following is a short list of some fundamental cueing flaws:

- elbow drop/rise during stroke
- abrupt swing transition
- incomplete follow through resulting in deceleration or a poke stroke
- excessive follow through
- steering
- body/head/bridge arm movement during stroke
- too long/short back swing length
- excessive or insufficient cue speed
- not maintaining a level cue
- inconsistent setup
- inconsistent/inexact aiming
- lack of pre-shot routine
- bad or inconsistent eye-patterns

So, what are the most significant technique flaws of American pool players vs. the world's snooker champions? (and if you don't agree these are flaws, that's ok too)
 
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It really just all boils down to the stance.

The snooker stance just about forces you to cue straight.

With the typical pool stance your cue is just flopping in the wind. Cueing straight becomes a matter of sheer repetition.

When it comes to straight cueing I actually think women have an unfair advantage since they have a certain appendage that they can use to assist. I think I'm going to make an insert men can use to assist them in guiding their cue. I'm sure all the men on AZ would buy one. :thumbup:
 
Different sports/games, different equipment, different techniques. It's like comparing tennis to squash. In pool, you're moving bigger, heavier balls, using a different type of cue. In pool you're able to use different parts of the pocket or even rub a rail to cheat the pocket, not because less accuracy is required, but in order to alter the post collision impact to move the CB along a different line. I have MAD respect for snooker players; I've played the game many, many times over the years I spent in Europe and know how tough it is. I don't buy that because a top flight snooker player can compete at a relatively high level in pool the reverse isn't true. You don't see a lot of pool players jumping to snooker, but most forget that the opportunity to do so is almost nil. I can't remember the last time I saw a regulation snooker table in the U.S. and in the UK professional snooker is a very exclusive "closed shop". Several years ago Steve Mizerak was invited to play an exhibition against a young Steven Hendry...although he lost, he acquitted himself very well, all the while shooting with a Richard Black custom pool cue, no less!

While cueing techniques used in snooker are very stable and effective, there's a reason pool players (with no snooker background) stand and stroke the way they do. If it were a truly superior technique, you'd see all the top pros doing it--and you don't. It's literally different strokes for different folks (games).
 
The best snooker and pool players have good fundamentals. Are you saying there aren't any snooker players with bad fundamentals? I all comes down to each individual no matter what they play. I wouldn't like snooker personally because if I didn't have someone there to keep replacing the colored balls, after every other shot. I would have to do it myself. That's the only reason I think snooker is a dumb game. Make a red ball it stays down. Make a colored and it has to get dug out of the pocket and placed back on the table. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Not my cup of tea. Practicing alone would really suck but a good workout.
 
The far from unanimous consensus seems to be that:

Snooker relies much more on cueing fundamentals than pool, and in general, pool players (especially those of the American variety) do not have the mastery of these fundamentals required to compete successfully at snooker at the highest levels.

I think snooker does rely on fundamentals more than pool because the margins for error are tighter - larger table, smaller pockets etc. all stack together to create a technically more challenging environment which force the focus on cueing.

That's no commentary on what game is most skilled or strategic. I grew up in europe and watched/played snooker for 25 years before moving to US and getting into US pool.

I think for a beginner playing on US pool tables, the table/pockets are more forgiving so we get a variety of stances and cue actions and can still be reasonably successful at potting and getting ok position.

Whereas in snooker, if you don't learn to deliver the cue consistently, then you're going to quit because you'll get nowhere. Good cueing becomes a formidable barrier to entry for snooker. So everyone adopts and encourages the 'best practices' they regularly see on TV when they're watching pro players.

The variety of techniques I see in US pool is amazing compared to the almost uniform approach in snooker rooms. I kinda like it though - different strokes and all that. But i do think the efren reyes' of the world are outliers, and having a kinda crazy cueing action will be a bottle neck for most of us.

So of all the things you list i'd say excessive cue speed and hiking the cue up are the most common things which puzzle me in US pool halls. You don't win by smashing the balls into powder every shot, and striking slightly down on the ball at about 20degrees adds all kinds of unwanted spin and skid.

And to show that not all snooker players have text-book technique is former world number 10 joe swail !! with a nice sideways grip on the cue and his right elbow so far over it's like he's bending over to do push ups.

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I suppose the question is will a more traditional snooker stance help you play better pool.

IMHO I don't believe it will, it may help you make a ball but will it help your overall game?

e.g. Cory Duel has not changed his technique since playing snooker and been coached the correct snooker stance.

perhaps to play good pool you need a more relaxed approach ?

More side, cheating pockets and using the cushions

Snooker is more about stun shots, moving the cue ball from A to B in the shortest distance
in most cases avoiding the cushions for position, which would double the distance the cue ball has to travel.
 
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Because we don't like snooker? That's a choice, not a bad attitude.

I believe he was talking about the players, and is absolutely correct.

The average snooker pro has a far better attitude than the average pool pro.
 
Over the past several months, there have been numerous posts and threads comparing and contrasting Snooker to American pool. The far from unanimous consensus seems to be that:

Snooker relies much more on cueing fundamentals than pool, and in general, pool players (especially those of the American variety) do not have the mastery of these fundamentals required to compete successfully at snooker at the highest levels.

Without going into a debate over the validity of this statement, I'd like to know (especially from snooker players) exactly which cueing fundamentals are deficient in American pool players?

The following is a short list of some fundamental cueing flaws:

Commentary inserted in-line with each bullet item below.

- elbow drop/rise during stroke

Not necessarily an issue, because many snooker players implement an elbow drop during stroke. In fact, some -- like Chris Melling -- has what's called a "scissor stroke" whereby the elbow drops on the pull-back of the cue, and then rises as the cue is delivered, ending with the elbow dropping again on the follow-through. (This movement comes from years of exaggerated attention to detail in keeping the cue level and delivered straight, like a solenoid or hydraulic piston.)

- abrupt swing transition

This is a big problem with pool players -- the lack of a smooth transition from backward pull-back to forward stroke. Or, shall we say, the transition doesn't match what the player is doing during his feather strokes (practice strokes) -- the player will pull back and <snap!> immediately try to move the cue in the opposite direction. Just like when piloting a ship with variable pitch propellers, you traveling at Flank 3 speed, and you suddenly slam it into Flank 3 Reverse (what's called a "crash back"). The transition is not going to be smooth by any means, and yaw will be introduced into the delivery.

- incomplete follow through resulting in deceleration or a poke stroke

For pool players, yes. This is from the player being tentative / fearful, and sometimes gets ingrained even when the player is experienced.

- excessive follow through

Rare, but yes, it does happen, when someone's trying to exaggerate the movement.

- steering

Oh heck yes. See this all the time, even amongst players who think they don't steer.

- body/head/bridge arm movement during stroke

All the time.

- too long/short back swing length

Related to poke stroke. Yes.

- excessive or insufficient cue speed

We all do that -- even snooker players. Overrunning position or coming up short happens all the time. Especially to those of us -- irrespective of pool or snooker -- who can't play all the time, and only can afford one or two days a week.

- not maintaining a level cue

Yes, there are many pool players who believe a good draw stroke is achieved by elevating the butt of the cue and striking downwards on the cue ball (works, but accuracy is drastically reduced). And, because of stance issues, the player may not realize how "unlevel" his/her cue is.

- inconsistent setup

All the time.

- inconsistent/inexact aiming

Yes. I relate this to a combination of lack of pre-shot routine, bad or inconsistent eye patterns (both below), as well as lack of attention to alignment to the shot line before even getting into a stance.

- lack of pre-shot routine

Yep, all the time, especially among the amateur ranks.

- bad or inconsistent eye-patterns

Ditto (as with "lack of pre-shot routine" above).

So, what are the most significant technique flaws of American pool players vs. the world's snooker champions? (and if you don't agree these are flaws, that's ok too)

The biggest problem, IMHO, is the inherent resistance to any kind of structured form of instruction -- whether that be by instructor, class, regimented stick-to-it-ness to a book or DVD, or what-have-you. In pool, "learning" has always been a "roll your own" endeavor. Think back to when you first learned how to play pool -- someone put a stick in your hand and said, "hold it like this, put it on your bridge hand like this, and shove it into the cue ball." That's basically what most pool players attribute their "training" to. They may pick up some books or DVDs in the future, or even take lessons from a pro, but those are always point-purpose lessons. I.e. the player is looking for that specific "something" -- that "magic bullet" to immediately play better. The golden pill. The magic elixir. The wizard's trick. Everything in pool is about that holy grail.

Compare that to snooker, or to pool in Europe or Asia, and what do you find? Much, MUCH more regimented instruction and structured syllabus, and less reliance or searches for that "magic pill."

That's why you're seeing European players ruling the roost lately when it comes to tournaments, Mosconi Cup, etc.

And unless something is done to change this "roll your own" training mindset of the U.S. pool players, it's only going to get worse.

-Sean
 
Just cuz top pool players lack consistent cookie cutter "fundamentals" doesn't mean that they have flawed technique. The best pool and snooker players at large happen to not make the mistakes listed below
 
sfleinen is SPOT ON!

Snooker players (both in Europe and Asia) practice their fundamentals for many hours a day. I once read an interview with a top pro snooker player (forgot his name) he said that even the best of the best practice the blue of the spot 3-4 hours every single day.

Pool in China is tought in almost the same way, I wouldnt be surprised if they do the same in Taiwan. My instructor is ranked top 10 in China and is a very "old school" guy.

I think he get a hard on by the word "Repetition" and "Follow through"
 
Cool picture of Joe Swail - one of the more unorthodox snooker players on the circuit. A great player though.
 
after playing snooker for years and watching snooker matches online of different pros i have come to the conclusion yall are smoking some good shit over there in England. Give any top player over here a year of playing with the better players over there and i think they adapt and will play even with their best. WTH our fundementals are every bit as good as theirs, we just dont play the game on that equipment,once we have for a year,you would see our top players on top over there too, despite what yall think your fundamentals and attitude isnt any better then ours. I say the snooker pros are just legends in their own minds,give me a break man. 6 x 12 table you tell me i cant make a 5 foot shot across the table at a makeable angle into a 3,5 inch pocket with a smaller ball, i have to call BULLSHIT. I have played on 5x10 snooker tables that were just as tight or tighter and played just fine after i got used to the pocket speed and at what angle you can pocket balls at,or play safe. So where can you go in the US and play on a 6x12 to practice,i only know of one table at Chrises billiards in Chicago. If you cant practice on the equipment you cant adapt to it. Those tables are in exellent condition, any we have are old and ran down,give us the equipment and let us play daily and then talk shit.
 
to put the snooker vs pool into perspective u need to take a good look @ tony drago, here's a guy who could just barely make it onto the main snooker tour up until a few years ago yet came over here and won the world 10 ball championship a few years back and i doubt the guy had ever even played on a diamond table b4

i follow snooker enough to know most of the players but had never even heard of stuart pettiman yet the guy came over here and ran away w the derby city str8 pool challenge and i doubt he'd ever even played b4

if snooker was that ez why would guys like pettiman and drago be coming over here instead of playing the game they've devoted most of their lives to that has 10x the prize $?
 
to put the snooker vs pool into perspective u need to take a good look @ tony drago, here's a guy who could just barely make it onto the main snooker tour up until a few years ago yet came over here and won the world 10 ball championship a few years back and i doubt the guy had ever even played on a diamond table b4

i follow snooker enough to know most of the players but had never even heard of stuart pettiman yet the guy came over here and ran away w the derby city str8 pool challenge and i doubt he'd ever even played b4

if snooker was that ez why would guys like pettiman and drago be coming over here instead of playing the game they've devoted most of their lives to that has 10x the prize $?
I have a high regard for Tony Drago, and he DID make it as a snooker
pro...he is one of their millionaires and ranked tenth at one time.
But many of the snooker matches were best of 19...I don't think he
would have done so well at pool if the matches were the same duration.
If Tony played 9-ball with Shane for 8 to 10 hours, he is a huge underdog.
 
I have a high regard for Tony Drago, and he DID make it as a snooker
pro...he is one of their millionaires and ranked tenth at one time.
But many of the snooker matches were best of 19...I don't think he
would have done so well at pool if the matches were the same duration.
If Tony played 9-ball with Shane for 8 to 10 hours, he is a huge underdog.

Right, he was a top 16 player for 6 or 7 years. In fact I think he was still in the top 16 when he started playing pro pool on the side. He did not actually win a World title in 10 ball, it was the Predator International 10 ball championship. Furthermore his successes at pool came years after his first forays into the game, suggesting that he required some seasoning and practice to achieve these titles. In other words, even for a cueist like Tony, it's not that easy.
 
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