Snooker vs. Pool

Neil said:
This is what I was talking about with systems. Pool players frown on them for the most part, yet, arguably the best position player ever was Buddy Hall. A system user. He used the clock method. Here's the definition of systems-

A system is a set of interacting or interdependent components forming an integrated whole[1] or a set of elements (often called 'components' ) and relationships which are different from relationships of the set or its elements to other elements or sets.[citation needed]
Fields that study the general properties of systems include systems science, systems theory, systems engineering, cybernetics, dynamical systems, thermodynamics, complex systems and system analysis and design. They investigate the abstract properties of systems' matter and organization, looking for concepts and principles that are independent of domain, substance, type, or temporal scale.[citation needed]
Some systems share common characteristics, including:[citation needed]
A system has structure, it contains parts (or components) that are directly or indirectly related to each other;
A system has behavior, it contains processes that transform inputs into outputs (material, energy or data);
A system has interconnectivity: the parts and processes are connected by structural and/or behavioral relationships.
A system's structure and behavior may be decomposed via subsystems and sub-processes to elementary parts and process steps.
The term system may also refer to a set of rules that governs structure and/or behavior. Alternatively, and usually in the context of complex social systems, the term institution is used to describe the set of rules that govern structure and/or behavior.

A system is nothing more than an orderly way of doing something so it is repeatable. Whether that be fundamentals, aiming, position play, speed control, ect. Why are snooker players currently better pocketers than we are? Because they use a system to ensure straight stroking.

Just to show how prevalent the American way of thinking about playing pool is completely non-orderly, just read this thread. I couldn't even mention "systems" without everyone's thinking reverting to the only system they are familiar with- aiming and then CTE. They can't even associate systems with anything else in the game.

Mark Wilson's entire book is about going about playing in a systematic way. Showing the best practices, and explaining why they are the best practices in his eyes. When Americans start systematically playing, instead of all the willy-nilly band-aids to cover up inconsistencies, then you will see us improve.
Click to expand...

Then why do you spend so much of your time on aiming systems?
 
Colonel said:
Well it's really not nonsense, I didn't say Deuel & Pagulayan don't love the game, I stated their foray into snooker was about $, not the love of THAT game, if you asked either one of them what they'd rather play if $ in both were equal it would be pool, not snooker. Also there's a difference between "modest" & flea pits & there's nothing romantic about the life of gambling, it's a grind, there isn't enough $ in tournaments & that is the problem, it's easier to gamble & supplement with poker. Lastly quite a few posts here have denigrated American players & pool. It seems many from other countries where snooker is popular feel we have a superior attitude when it's quite the other way around, especially the English, superior attitude is their hallmark.


Why am I the Colonel? Because I always get the chicken
Click to expand...


I blame Hollywood stereotype baddies and Nigel Mansell :p

The Americans are just as bad as the British, for centuries we have all been going around the world trying to impose our will on everyone else.
 
Last edited:
Neil said:
[...]
Just to show how prevalent the American way of thinking about playing pool is completely non-orderly, just read this thread. I couldn't even mention "systems" without everyone's thinking reverting to the only system they are familiar with- aiming and then CTE. They can't even associate systems with anything else in the game.
Click to expand...

Neil:

Two things:

1. More than half of the folks that responded to you, with your purported accusation of defaulting to aiming system, have been non-Americans. I am highly suspicious of your point that this is "an American way of thinking" and "how prevalent it is," when it's obvious that the way the rest of world is playing pool is creating distance away from Americans.

2. No disrespect, but you made your bed with this. People -- regardless of where they are from -- have memories, and associate other people with their past behaviors. So yes, when we hear "Neil from AZB" mention the word "systems," of course the initial thought is aiming systems, because you've been quite the vocal supporter of same. Not that this is bad -- I'm not saying that -- but rather don't shoot your audience for the very presentation you yourself made.

Neil said:
Mark Wilson's entire book is about going about playing in a systematic way. Showing the best practices, and explaining why they are the best practices in his eyes. When Americans start systematically playing, instead of all the willy-nilly band-aids to cover up inconsistencies, then you will see us improve.
Click to expand...

And that last bolded sentence summarizes what those of us are saying in this thread, with the underlined part being key. If you depart from this thread leaving us with that thought, I think you'll be on the correct side of the road, and I'd pencil you into the "Agrees, Americans need to systematically improve" column.

-Sean
 
Last edited:
sfleinen said:
Neil:

Two things:

1. More than half of the folks that responded to you, with your purported accusation of defaulting to aiming system, have been non-Americans. I am highly suspicious of your point that this is "an American way of thinking" and "how prevalent it is," when it's obvious that the way the rest of world is playing pool is creating distance away from Americans.

2. No disrespect, but you made your bed with this. People -- regardless of where they are from -- have memories, and associate other people with their past behaviors. So yes, when we hear "Neil from AZB" mention the word "systems," of course the initial thought is aiming systems, because you've been quite the vocal supporter of same. Not that this is bad -- I'm not saying that -- but rather don't shoot your audience for the very presentation you yourself made.



And that last bolded sentence summarizes what those of us are saying in this thread, with the underlined part being key. If you depart from this thread leaving us with that thought, I think you'll be on the correct side of the road, and I'd pencil you into the "Agrees, Americans need to systematically improve" column.

-Sean
Click to expand...

Not my fault so many of you can't simply read what is written without adding in a bunch of stuff that wasn't said. That's not on me, no matter how you try to spin it. It's on you, and you alone.

Pencil me in? LOL, Sean. I've been saying that on here for years.
 
Neil said:
Not my fault so many of you can't simply read what is written without adding in a bunch of stuff that wasn't said. That's not on me, no matter how you try to spin it. It's on you, and you alone.
...
Click to expand...

I think Sean must need a better reading system. <----- insert wink here.
 
Neil said:
I've spent more time in real life, and on here, on other topics. You and others just have a hard-on for aiming systems, so they get noticed more by you.;)
Click to expand...

Yes, but why specifically aiming? If you want root and branch reform, bang the drum for it, yet you're always in the aiming forum explaining everyone has no clue what they are talking about.
 
TheThaiger said:
Yes, but why specifically aiming? If you want root and branch reform, bang the drum for it, yet you're always in the aiming forum explaining everyone has no clue what they are talking about.
Click to expand...

Oh, you mean like to Duckie, Thaiger, and a few others? Guess it's only ok when you do the same, huh? :wink: Got tired of "banging the drum". It's too much like pissing in the wind. Just like this thread has been.
 
Neil said:
I've spent more time in real life, and on here, on other topics. You and others just have a hard-on for aiming systems, so they get noticed more by you.;)
Click to expand...

Neil,

Your exact words were:
"Some of you made great posts, then scoffed at using any kind of systems."

I don't recall anyone scoffing at any systems, except for aiming systems.

You have since replied in more details with this clarification:

"A system is nothing more than an orderly way of doing something so it is repeatable. Whether that be fundamentals, aiming, position play, speed control, ect. Why are snooker players currently better pocketers than we are? Because they use a system to ensure straight stroking."

If that's what you meant by systems, then who exactly is scoffing at that? I've never seen anyone scoff at taking a systematic approach, in general, to learning. I've never seen anyone scoff about fundamentals, position play, speed control, straight stroking. So what does that leave? Aiming systems...

So again, when you wrote the sentence about people making great posts, and then "scoffed at using any kind of systems", which systems are you saying people have been scoffing, if not aiming systems?
 
Slasher said:
I blame Hollywood stereotype baddies and Nigel Mansell :p

The Americans are just as bad as the British, for centuries we have all been going around the world trying to impose our will on everyone else.
Click to expand...

Yes but we are far better at it whereas the entire world hates America..
 
At the start of this debate x number of players thought snooker players were better than pool players and x thought the reverse. Two weeks later and no one has changed position..

All we are certain of is that British players are better looking than their colonial cousins
 
shinobi said:
Neil,

Your exact words were:
"Some of you made great posts, then scoffed at using any kind of systems."

I don't recall anyone scoffing at any systems, except for aiming systems.

You have since replied in more details with this clarification:

"A system is nothing more than an orderly way of doing something so it is repeatable. Whether that be fundamentals, aiming, position play, speed control, ect. Why are snooker players currently better pocketers than we are? Because they use a system to ensure straight stroking."

If that's what you meant by systems, then who exactly is scoffing at that? I've never seen anyone scoff at taking a systematic approach, in general, to learning. I've never seen anyone scoff about fundamentals, position play, speed control, straight stroking. So what does that leave? Aiming systems...

So again, when you wrote the sentence about people making great posts, and then "scoffed at using any kind of systems", which systems are you saying people have been scoffing, if not aiming systems?
Click to expand...

Still wondering about this...
 
shinobi said:
Still wondering about this...
Click to expand...

You really want me to go back through 115 posts just because you don't want to do that?

Don't know why you seem fixated on trying to catch me in some gaffe statement while missing the message, but post 40 and 41 do just what I stated.
 
Last edited:
voiceofreason said:
At the start of this debate x number of players thought snooker players were better than pool players and x thought the reverse. Two weeks later and no one has changed position..

All we are certain of is that British players are better looking than their colonial cousins
Click to expand...

This is sort of a common theme around here. Everybody assumes that nobody changes their opinion on things because of something that was read on the internet. I disagree. I have had my opinion changed on a lot of subjects because of things I have read on AZ. This is certainly one subject. I have been enlightened when it comes to the superiority of snooker fundamentals over pool fundamentals (if such a thing even exists).

I think a lot of people learn stuff on AZ and a few of us even change our minds from time to time. However, it is not cool to admit it.

All we are really certain of is that British players are in more need of dental work than their colonial cousins are. :thumbup:
 
BasementDweller said:
This is sort of a common theme around here. Everybody assumes that nobody changes their opinion on things because of something that was read on the internet. I disagree. I have had my opinion changed on a lot of subjects because of things I have read on AZ. This is certainly one subject. I have been enlightened when it comes to the superiority of snooker fundamentals over pool fundamentals (if such a thing even exists).
Click to expand...

In snooker, fundamentals are more important than other things, whereas fundamentals are less important at pool and other things have an increased effect on a game. for example and not limited to:

The break is much more important at pool than it is at snooker
Safety play is harder at pool than snooker
The result of a mistake at pool can be harsher than at snooker

To say that snooker is "harder" simply because of the fundamentals is not right. That gives no weight to any of the other factors in the game of pool. All sports are equally hard anyway.

Running 100m is easy. Probably a huge percentage of AZers can do it. Now go explain to half a dozen international sprinters that it is not "hard"..

I think a lot of people learn stuff on AZ and a few of us even change our minds from time to time. However, it is not cool to admit it.
Click to expand...

Yup!

All we are really certain of is that British players are in more need of dental work than their colonial cousins are. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Yeah maybe but we are not all overweight and we all have beautiful women.

and we can spell words like colour properly.
 
Neil said:
You really want me to go back through 115 posts just because you don't want to do that?

Don't know why you seem fixated on trying to catch me in some gaffe statement while missing the message, but post 40 and 41 do just what I stated.
Click to expand...

1) You didn't write post 40 or 41.

2) Post 40 or 41 are NOT scoffing at any systematic approach, which is what your words were about.

3) So my question still stands... which system are you saying people are scoffing at, if NOT aiming systems?

You don't seem to want to answer that dirt simple question. You said people are scoffing, I'm asking at what specifically? And rather than answer that amazingly simple question, you complain.
 
shinobi said:
1) You didn't write post 40 or 41.

2) Post 40 or 41 are NOT scoffing at any systematic approach, which is what your words were about.

3) So my question still stands... which system are you saying people are scoffing at, if NOT aiming systems?

You don't seem to want to answer that dirt simple question. You said people are scoffing, I'm asking at what specifically? And rather than answer that amazingly simple question, you complain.
Click to expand...

Obvious you are here for one reason, to nitpick. Go ahead and see things any old way you want to. Think whatever you want to. I really don't care. I offered my opinion, if you don't like it, too bad. And, speaking of complaining, I did answer it, and you complained about the answer. And, of course I didn't write those to posts I mentioned. Duh... why would I state what I did about my own posts?? If you have trouble keeping up, just get someone else to explain it all to you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top