Something I noticed at APA last night.

[justadub]

Howdy dub - it varies from pool hall to pool hall. Basically it depends on the average strength of everyone who signed up for APA in that room. A seven in TJ's in Waterville would be tougher than a 7 at The Sports Arena in Bangor.

When I was shooting in Brunswick, they made me a seven when I had the skill level of a strong 5 here. That was like ten years ago. I would've had a VERY rough time in my current masters league. Hell, I'm having a rough time as it is

But I wouldn't take that to mean they're better players here, it truly depends on the hall... whether it's primarily a player's hall or more a bar. There are guys in waterville and lewiston that would make masters league pretty tough. Maybe in portland too, if kerry hasn't yet turned it into a giant dance floor with a few barboxes.

Interesting. I know a few of the guys that get sent to Vegas for our Masters representation, a couple of them from this area. Thanks

 

[alanvo]

Isnt pool supposed to be fun? Why so serious

 

[Push&Pool]

Hey people I'm new here (joined a few hrs ago) so please have some understanding and don't bash me because of my ignorance

I'm not very familiar with APA (I'm from Europe) and I don't know how exactly it's organised. I know this is not the topic but I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread, so could someone pls explain me in short words how APA functions, the player ratings (I guess that's what those 4s and 5s mean???) and the handicap system?

Regarding the topic, I always want to win the matches I play and I can rarely feel exceptionally good if I didn't do my best, but I still enjoyed every single shot in all those years of playing pool. I think that if you don't like the game and have fun while playing, you won't be a particularly good player.

 

[lorider]

first

Hey people I'm new here (joined a few hrs ago) so please have some understanding and don't bash me because of my ignorance

I'm not very familiar with APA (I'm from Europe) and I don't know how exactly it's organised. I know this is not the topic but I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread, so could someone pls explain me in short words how APA functions, the player ratings (I guess that's what those 4s and 5s mean???) and the handicap system?

Regarding the topic, I always want to win the matches I play and I can rarely feel exceptionally good if I didn't do my best, but I still enjoyed every single shot in all those years of playing pool. I think that if you don't like the game and have fun while playing, you won't be a particularly good player.

first of all welcome to the forum.

i will try to answer your questions the best that i can. i am sure others will correct me if i am wrong.

all new male players start out as a 4 and ladies start out as a 3 unless you are a known player.

after you have played a few matches there are several factors to determine what your handicap should really be. all of your statistics during those matches are entered into their database and are reviewed every so often. they keep track of your win - loss record. the number of innings played during your matches. number of defensive shots, break and runs, 8 on the break are all used to determine your playing ability..

when you match up against an opponent your handicap determines the number of games you must win. the apa uses 1 less game than your handicap in most situations to shorten the length of time playing during your match.

example. a 4 facing a 4 would be a 3-3 race. you must win 3 games before your opponent does.

another example . a 7 facing a 5 would be a 5-3 race. the 1st player to reach their required number of games wins the match. it is hard for a 5 to beat a 7 but i have done it often enough to say the handicap system is for the most part pretty fair and accurrate in our area.

as with any league i think whether you have a good experience or bad would be based on the attitudes of the players in that particular league and how well it is ran.

hope this helps you understand their format. feel free to ask any other questions. and again ...welcome to the forum.

 

[Push&Pool]

first

first of all welcome to the forum.

i will try to answer your questions the best that i can. i am sure others will correct me if i am wrong.

all new male players start out as a 4 and ladies start out as a 3 unless you are a known player.

after you have played a few matches there are several factors to determine what your handicap should really be. all of your statistics during those matches are entered into their database and are reviewed every so often. they keep track of your win - loss record. the number of innings played during your matches. number of defensive shots, break and runs, 8 on the break are all used to determine your playing ability..

when you match up against an opponent your handicap determines the number of games you must win. the apa uses 1 less game than your handicap in most situations to shorten the length of time playing during your match.

example. a 4 facing a 4 would be a 3-3 race. you must win 3 games before your opponent does.

another example . a 7 facing a 5 would be a 5-3 race. the 1st player to reach their required number of games wins the match. it is hard for a 5 to beat a 7 but i have done it often enough to say the handicap system is for the most part pretty fair and accurrate in our area.

as with any league i think whether you have a good experience or bad would be based on the attitudes of the players in that particular league and how well it is ran.

hope this helps you understand their format. feel free to ask any other questions. and again ...welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome and thanks very much for the answer Now I see how it functions... Just two more things (someone else can answer instead of you xD ):

1. Why do women get lower rating from the start? I understand why males have the advantage in sports which require more physical strenght and endurance, but I don't see many differences between the gender in pool, except maybe the lenght of arms.

2. I may have been misinformed but I think I heard of some differences between official BCA and APA rules. I personally don't use either of them, however, if it's not the problem, I'd like to know what exactly the differences are. Thanks again :wink:

 

[justadub]

Thanks for the welcome and thanks very much for the answer Now I see how it functions... Just two more things (someone else can answer instead of you xD ):

1. Why do women get lower rating from the start? I understand why males have the advantage in sports which require more physical strenght and endurance, but I don't see many differences between the gender in pool, except maybe the lenght of arms.

2. I may have been misinformed but I think I heard of some differences between official BCA and APA rules. I personally don't use either of them, however, if it's noth the problem, I'd like to know what exactly the differences are. Thanks again :wink:

I'll take a turn....and welcome, from me as well.

I can't speak to the "why" ladies start a level lower, but in my experience the ladies in our APA league generally play on the lower end of the skill level. Perhaps this is a way the league management is trying to make participating less daunting, especially as this is a league geared towards beginners. There is no seperate scoring for ladies, so if they play well, they will advance in ranking just like the men.

As for number 2, that could take a long while, but I will summarize the most obvious differences for you.

BCApl is a called pocket league, APA is not, save for the 8-ball. APA is take what you make on the break, BCApl is open table. No jump cues in APA. APA requires that the shooter place a marker of some sort on the rail by the pocket that he intends to shoot the 8-ball into. (Cause for much angst here on AZB, heh heh....its silly, but really, not a big deal). Scratch on the break, behind the line in APA, ball in hand anywhere in BCApl.

I'm not as familiar with the differences in 9-ball, but the major one is how the games are scored. BCApl has its matches contested by games won. APA has developed a points system for 9-ball. You get 1 point for every ball you make, and 2 points for the 9-ball. Each skill level is assigned a number of points necessary to win the match.

In APA, Skill levels range from 2-7 in 8-ball, and 1-9 in 9-ball. Only ladies are allowed to be a 2 in 8-ball, or a 1 in 9-ball. (Some local operators make exceptions to this, but those are the national rules.) A team can only play 23 points of combined skill levels in an APA match. BCApl is not handicapped on the national level. Again, some local operators may utilize a handicap system....

I could go on, but those are the big differences.

 

[Push&Pool]

I'll take a turn....and welcome, from me as well.

I can't speak to the "why" ladies start a level lower, but in my experience the ladies in our APA league generally play on the lower end of the skill level. Perhaps this is a way the league management is trying to make participating less daunting, especially as this is a league geared towards beginners. There is no seperate scoring for ladies, so if they play well, they will advance in ranking just like the men.

As for number 2, that could take a long while, but I will summarize the most obvious differences for you.

BCApl is a called pocket league, APA is not, save for the 8-ball. APA is take what you make on the break, BCApl is open table. No jump cues in APA. APA requires that the shooter place a marker of some sort on the rail by the pocket that he intends to shoot the 8-ball into. (Cause for much angst here on AZB, heh heh....its silly, but really, not a big deal). Scratch on the break, behind the line in APA, ball in hand anywhere in BCApl.

I'm not as familiar with the differences in 9-ball, but the major one is how the games are scored. BCApl has its matches contested by games won. APA has developed a points system for 9-ball. You get 1 point for every ball you make, and 2 points for the 9-ball. Each skill level is assigned a number of points necessary to win the match.

In APA, Skill levels range from 2-7 in 8-ball, and 1-9 in 9-ball. Only ladies are allowed to be a 2 in 8-ball, or a 1 in 9-ball. (Some local operators make exceptions to this, but those are the national rules.) A team can only play 23 points of combined skill levels in an APA match. BCApl is not handicapped on the national level. Again, some local operators may utilize a handicap system....

I could go on, but those are the big differences.

OK tnx very much I got the most of it except that "take what you make on the break" in APA and "open table" in BCA. I've been playing pool for several year (8ball only, no other games in my area unfortunately :frown: ) but I'm not familiar with many pool terms they use in leagues and professional games. Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for a lesson here and now, that would certainly take a while :grin:

You said in APA they mark the pocket they intend to shoot the 8 ball into. I was wandering, isn't that standard for 8ball? I know there's a version where you can drop the 8 anywhere, but I never really liked playing that way. Sinking the 8 in the pocket where you dropped the last solid/stripe makes the game more complex, interesting and harder. But that's only my opinion.

As far as I know, "scratch" occurs when you sink the cue ball? Where I play we have no term for that, we just say "pocketing the CB", so please correct me if I'm wrong. So what would "scratch on the break" mean? Dropping the CB while breaking is allowed? What's the other variant? And also, where does the CB go? BiH in BCA, behind the line in APA? In this part of Europe we usually put the CB on the headspot... Could someone pls clarify these things to me? Tnx :smile:

 

[lorider]

Thanks for the welcome and thanks very much for the answer Now I see how it functions... Just two more things (someone else can answer instead of you xD ):

1. Why do women get lower rating from the start? I understand why males have the advantage in sports which require more physical strenght and endurance, but I don't see many differences between the gender in pool, except maybe the lenght of arms.

2. I may have been misinformed but I think I heard of some differences between official BCA and APA rules. I personally don't use either of them, however, if it's not the problem, I'd like to know what exactly the differences are. Thanks again :wink:

1. i had to dwell on this question before coming up with an answer. shotmaking does not require physical strength but the break does. i think the typical woman is a disavantage when breaking. they are more prone to breaking dry thus giving them less opportunity to continue shooting, giving them more innings per match and also decreasing their chances of winning the match.

2. before i answer this question i want to say i am not as up to date on bcapl rules as i would like to be. i did join an in house money league a few weeks ago but there probly have been a few rule changes since i last played in a sanctioned bcapl league.

the major differences are as follows.

the break.
apa; take what you make on the break. if you make 1 of each obviously you get your choice. scratch on the break your opponent gets ball in hand anywhere behind the head string. make the 8 on the break is a win. make the 8 on the break and scratch is a loss.

bcapl; open after the break. if you make a ball choose either set you want to. scratch on the break your opponent gets ball in hand anywhere on the table. make the 8 on the break and scratch is not a loss, the 8 ball is spotted on the foot string.i am not sure in a sanctioned league but in our money league making the 8 on the break is a win.

my personal opinion on this. apa's rule makes it harder to have a break and run giving lesser skilled players more opportunities at the table. openbreak gives higher skilled opportunities to have a break and run leaving their opponent sitting in their chair.

making shots.

apa.

here is the biggest pet peeve most people have with the apa. slop counts. as long as you hit your object ball 1st any of your balls can fall in any pocket and you continue shooting. you do have to call the 8 though. you also have to mark the pocket you are shooting the 8 in.

bcapl;

you have to call your pocket on every shot. if you call one pocket and it falls into another one its your opponents turn to shoot.

my personal opinion; you do see slop from lower skilled players but i very seldom see it from 5's and above. when i 1st joined apa it used to piss me off to see someone make a slop shot and continue shooting. now i look at it this way. i see it as spotting them a few shots much like a gambler spotting a lesser player the 7 out in a game of 9 ball. the call your pocket rule is just what it says. you call your pocket. if you call your ball in the left corner pocket and it hits every ball on the table on the way down it dont matter as long as it falls in the pocket you called. i know that is a alil extreme scenario but my point is i have seen more than one called cross side bank into the right side pocket called , they missed it come across the table , hits the left rail goes back across table into the right side pocket. to me that is a slop shot but that is the pocket they called. does it happen often ? no , just like slop does not happen often from higher level players in apa.

scoring; both teams have 5 players

apa; as i stated in my previous post you play a race to your handicap, much like you would play a set against any opponent in any pool room. a higher skilled player might give his opponent 3 on the wire in a race to 10. the same way in the apa. a 7 would spot a 4 6-3 or a 5 would be 5-3 to shorten the lenght of time for matches. the team that wins the most out of the 5 matchups wins. example. tour team won 3 matches they won 2, your team won that night.

bcapl.

in most ares you have a round robin format. meaning all 5 of your players play all 5 opposing players. your team has a determined number of points they have to reach based on the total team handicap. example if your team totaled 25 and the other team totaled 24 you would have to make more points than them. dont ask me how that is determined, i never got involved in the scorekeeping. in our area you get 1 point for each ball down and 2 points for making the 8. example; if you won the match you get 9 points. if your opponent has 2 balls left on the table he gets 5 points with you winning 9-5. notice i said balls left on the table, not balls that were down.

here is why i made that statement. your opponent is credited for all balls off the table, not all balls he pocketed.

example; you break and make 2 stripes and 1 solid. you elect to take solids and run out. your opponent is credited 2 points for the 2 stripes you made on the break without ever getting to the table.

hope this explains the major differences in the formats of the 2 leagues.

 

[justadub]

OK tnx very much I got the most of it except that "take what you make on the break" in APA and "open table" in BCA. I've been playing pool for several year (8ball only, no other games in my area unfortunately :frown: ) but I'm not familiar with many pool terms they use in leagues and professional games. Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for a lesson here and now, that would certainly take a while :grin:

You said in APA they mark the pocket they intend to shoot the 8 ball into. I was wandering, isn't that standard for 8ball? I know there's a version where you can drop the 8 anywhere, but I never really liked playing that way. Sinking the 8 in the pocket where you dropped the last solid/stripe makes the game more complex, interesting and harder. But that's only my opinion.

As far as I know, "scratch" occurs when you sink the cue ball? Where I play we have no term for that, we just say "pocketing the CB", so please correct me if I'm wrong. So what would "scratch on the break" mean? Dropping the CB while breaking is allowed? What's the other variant? And also, where does the CB go? BiH in BCA, behind the line in APA? In this part of Europe we usually put the CB on the headspot... Could someone pls clarify these things to me? Tnx :smile:

Sorry, I'm typing this on my phone, at work, so I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I'll try to clarify for you.

"Take what you make" refers to when the shooter breaks the rack, and pots just one type if ball (stripes or solids) then the shooter has to continue shooting the type that he made. In BCApl, the shooter has the option to choose whichever type wants, so long as he made any ball. That is referred to as "open table" here.

"Marking the pocket" is APA specific, no other organization requires it. The player literally has to place an object, or "marker" (can be anything...your phone, wallet, or something a player carries just for this purpose) on the rail next to the pocket that he intends to shoot the eight ball into. Every other league, all the shooter needs to do is indicate which pocket he intends to his opponent, "calling" the pocket. It causes a lot of annoyance to those who feel they are above such a rule. It's my opinion that the APA requires this so that there is nothing to question as to which pocket was intended, as opposed to someone saying that they thought the shooter meant a different pocket than where he hit it....avoiding arguments. (Creates more sometimes, heh.)

"Scratching" means two things here, potting the cue ball, or failing to hit one of your balls before hitting one of your opponents (or the 8-ball). Both types grant ball in hand to the opponent. That means the incoming player can place the cue ball anywhere they like on the table. Where this differs between the leagues is only when the scratch is on the break. If a player scratchs (in this case, potting the cue ball, since ball choice isn't determined yet) while breaking in APA, the incoming player can place the cue ball anywhere behind the break line, and must shoot forward towards where the balls were racked. In BCApl, the incoming player can place the cue ball anywhere on the table that they like.

Another difference that I forgot, in APA, if you make the 8-ball on the break, you win the game, unless the cue ball also goes in, in which case you lose the game. In BCApl, if you make the 8-ball on the break, it is spotted, and play continues with the breaker still shooting.

Clearer, I hope.

 

[lorider]

OK tnx very much I got the most of it except that "take what you make on the break" in APA and "open table" in BCA. I've been playing pool for several year (8ball only, no other games in my area unfortunately :frown: ) but I'm not familiar with many pool terms they use in leagues and professional games. Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for a lesson here and now, that would certainly take a while :grin:

You said in APA they mark the pocket they intend to shoot the 8 ball into. I was wandering, isn't that standard for 8ball? I know there's a version where you can drop the 8 anywhere, but I never really liked playing that way. Sinking the 8 in the pocket where you dropped the last solid/stripe makes the game more complex, interesting and harder. But that's only my opinion.

As far as I know, "scratch" occurs when you sink the cue ball? Where I play we have no term for that, we just say "pocketing the CB", so please correct me if I'm wrong. So what would "scratch on the break" mean? Dropping the CB while breaking is allowed? What's the other variant? And also, where does the CB go? BiH in BCA, behind the line in APA? In this part of Europe we usually put the CB on the headspot... Could someone pls clarify these things to me? Tnx :smile:

you and dub were posting while i gave my long winded explanation.

in america your version of sinking the 8 in the last pocket you pocketed your solid or stripe is known as last pocket 8 ball. yes it does make the game more challenging.

scratching on the break means pocketing the cueball resulting in loss of continuing shooting.

in apa when you pocket the cue ball on the break your opponent is awarded with ballin hand anywher in the area behind the headspot at the head of the table. he can only shoot at any balls below the headspot limiting his options of balls to shoot at.

in bcapl you are awarded ball in hand anywhere on the table thus making it easier for you to have a possible run out winning the game. hardly gives lesser skilled players at winning if they scratched on the break huh ?

hope that helps you understand better.

 

[Push&Pool]

I'm very grateful to both of you for informing me so well and in so much detail I understand many game aspects much better now. From my point of view, I would definitely prefer APA rules, though I understand those who are not so eager to use them. However, the way I usually play 8ball in my area is different from both BCA and APA variant. It's a little complex, so let me describe it step by step.

Basics

We play either standalone games or matches which can consist of any number of games. If the number is even, there's a possibility of a draw (obviously).

We play either 1v1 or in teams. The number of players on both sides isn't determined (for example 2v1, 1v3, 2v3) but it's most often 2v2.

We try to keep teams balanced by choosing the players according to their skill level and ability (for example, a very skilled one and a low-skilled one vs two mid-range players). However, we always play for fun so we shift teams all the time and try out all combinations :grin:

Break

Before the start, we decide which side breaks first. Breaking then changes between the two sides every following game.

The player can place the cue ball anywhere behind the break line. He gets what he pockets on the break. If he sinks both stripes and solids, his color is the one which dropped first.

If nothing dropped, the next player gets the shot and can shoot anything until the first colored ball is pocketed.

In case of Scratch, the player gets the color he pocketed, but the CB is returned on the headspot and the next player gets the shot. When shooting from the headspot, you're only allowed to hit the rails and balls below an imaginary line which splits the table in two (from the center of one side pocket to the other, I hope you got this xD). This applies every time a Scratch occurs.

If you pocket the 8 ball on the break you win, but if any other ball goes in along with it (including the CB), it's a loss. We still have arguements about this rule...

Game

You have to pocket at least one of your balls every shot to continue playing. It doesn't matter if you sink your opponent's balls in the same move.

You have to drop all of your balls and then you need to sink the 8 in the pocket where you dropped your last ball (the marked pocket).

If you pocket the 8 in the wrong pocket you lose.

If at any time during the match you hit the 8 ball with the CB directly (before touching other rails or balls), you lose. This obviously doesn't apply after you sink your last ball :grin:

If you touch your opponent's balls directly you lose the turn and the opponent can choose to either sink the ball you hit or keep it on the table (for strategic reasons).

There's no requirements for touching the rails or any balls during any shot. There are no penalties, no BiH, you only lose your turn if you don't sink your balls. However, we don't scratch intentionally (the rules would allow it, but we kinda came to an agreement ). Well, at least some of us don't...

And then there's this special rule some players use and some don't but I personally like it. When the 8 comes very close to an unmarked pocket which makes it practically impossible to send it away without dropping it, we place it on the head rail behind the headspot.


Now, every other player likes to change a rule or two, but I described the core of the game. I don't know if you're familiar with such rules for 8ball in the US, but that's how we play in my little part of Europe Hope you like it!

 

[maxeypad2007]

I wish I could go back to knowing nothing about pool sometimes and start over. I definitely had more fun then when I was blind to the complexities of the game

 

[quadrary]

apa rules

"i know that is a alil extreme scenario but my point is i have seen more than one called cross side bank into the right side pocket called , they missed it come across the table , hits the left rail goes back across table into the right side pocket. to me that is a slop shot but that is the pocket they called."

Dont be so quick to call that shot slop the double cross side bank is a commonly used shot and is often intended. The ball comes across table to the other side of the opposite side pocket then spins back to the pocket that would appear to be diectly cross side. It used alot when to object ball frozen to the rail and you have a shallow angle to go cross side.

 

[Push&Pool]

I wish I could go back to knowing nothing about pool sometimes and start over. I definitely had more fun then when I was blind to the complexities of the game

I know what you mean. I'm always trying to improve my game, but I mostly do that by myself and with little help from others. Pool books and DVDs are not my thing. For me it's much more fun building up your own skill and strategy according to personal preferences. Plus, I have a feeling I became more resourceful and successful at improvisation this way.

 

[justadub]

I wish I could go back to knowing nothing about pool sometimes and start over. I definitely had more fun then when I was blind to the complexities of the game

Sometimes, usually at the end of the night, I just let go and shoot instinctively, and quickly. Not thinking. It's kind of fun. (Kind of eye-opening occasionally, too)

 

[CreeDo]

Sometimes, usually at the end of the night, I just let go and shoot instinctively, and quickly. Not thinking. It's kind of fun. (Kind of eye-opening occasionally, too)

A really fun version of this is speed 8 ball. I do this with amenable buddies when the staff says last call/last rack. Our goal is to get in at least three racks in the time it takes others to finish one.

Only one practice swing allowed (or zero for hardcore mode). You must literally run to your next shot. Shooting while balls are still rolling is ok. Stopping to think or plan is a foul. No ball in hand except for an actual scratch. No fussing with the rack or taking your time to break.

You'd be amazed at how easily you drill in shots, including banks and thin cuts, when you play like this. You'll make shots you'd never consider taking otherwise.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Complexities

I wish I could go back to knowing nothing about pool sometimes and start over. I definitely had more fun then when I was blind to the complexities of the game

Maxey,

Maybe you should not consider the knowledge as 'complexities'. The complex knowledge is useful when needed but it is not needed that often. Most of the time you are just playing marbles, but shooting with a grip tipped stick instead of your thumb. Think of it as playing chess but with big marbles.

Since my eye went bad, I don't always win because of my shooting ability. I win many times simply because I'm smarter on the table.

Don't over think it. See it. Feel it. Do it. And... most of all, have fun doing it.

Best Wishes,