If it was built and bought to be sold as an authentic South West cue, then I call it a Knock-off, a counterfit and disgusting. If it was built for someone who likes that style of cue and wants one to play with, then I say, "Nice Cue".
SouthWest Knock-offs
- Thread starter runscott
- Start date
If it was built and bought to be sold as an authentic South West cue, then I call it a Knock-off, a counterfit and disgusting. If it was built for someone who likes that style of cue and wants one to play with, then I say, "Nice Cue".
Don't be afraid to call a 'knock-off' a 'knock-off'. 'Counterfeit' might sound more appropriate for cues built to intentionally deceive, but why sugar-coat something? Obviously that Mottey has Southwest style elements, but isn't a knock-off. Also obvious - some of the Staceys, etc., are SW knock-offs - i.e., cues made to look 'like' a SW to appeal to those who like the style and either can't afford the real thing, or really like the way the knock-off maker's cues play.
A lot of great cue-makers build knock-offs. You can call them tributes if you want, but as I said, why sugarcoat?
OK, they are Knock-offs.
On another note, do any of these Cuemakers make the shafts a little longer than the butts when they make these South West "Knock-offs"? I've not seen any built this way. Has anyone else come across one like this?
A knockoff is anything made to be like the original. Be it in design or performance. That doesn't mean that the knockoff is necessarily a bad thing or even worse than the original.
A knockoff can be a copy but it doesn't have to be.
A counterfeit is copy that carries the brand name of the original, illegally. That is a crime.
There are plenty of cues out there that can be counted as SouthWest knockoffs. They take some or all of the designs most associated with SW. Some go much farther than others.
Kao Fa, KF Cues, has built most of their business on copying just about everything SouthWest has ever done, to include a lot of the inlaid SW cues. Between them and a few other Taiwanese cue makers there are a lot of NOT-SouthWest shafts on real SouthWest butts in Taiwan and China.
The fact is that any time something is desirable then it's a target for getting knocked off to varying degrees. That's just how life goes. Do you consider yourself to be a copycat if you go out and buy the same brand of TV right after you see your neighbor with one? Or if you see that someone did something really cool with their lawn and you copy what they did and maybe improve on it a little do you feel bad about that? Or maybe your buddy built himself a really great workbench in his garage with some handy features and you build one for yourself?
Copying is what we do. It's in our DNA. We are genetic copies of our ancestors and social copies of our peers. In fact being original is frowned upon and mostly not tolerated. One has to become famous and useful as a money-making tool in order for their "originality" to be tolerated. If you people truly valued originality then there are several cue makers out there doing such out of the box stuff that they should be the ones getting $10,000 a cue.
SouthWest builds a freaking great cue. No doubt about it in my mind. I regret that I flipped mine to Salazar the day I got it for $400 more than I paid. I was in a bad spot in life but I still regret it. Some things are meant to be kept and treasured. BUT SouthWest's design is not something that is meant to considered the holy grail and unobtainable. It's a pool cue and with a ten year plus wait it's a HUGE target for other cue makers to try and fill the void. That includes cue makers in America, factories in Taiwan and China, dealers and distributors.
And honestly it's the circle of life if you really think about it. The demand for SouthWest cues remains high which fuels the growth of knockoffs which then further escalates the demand for the real thing. Why aren't Gucci and Prada and Hermes out of business when the amount of fake knockoffs far exceeds the amount of real bags carrying those labels? Simple, the buyers of the real stuff and the fakes live in two separate income brackets and rarely do they cross.
However EVERY person who buys a SouthWest looking cue KNOWS that they don't have a SouthWest. (some exceptions for people who were sold a copy of a SW as if it were real and people who genuinely believed that the cue they own is a SW).
They know in their heart that they don't have a "real" one and so they do everything that they can to justify the purchase to themselves and make up for not having a real one. So and so's cue hits better and I don't have to wait ten years. The quality is better..... SouthWest cues are overpriced, overhyped...... and so on. But they still own a cue that LOOKS LIKE a SW.
And that is not a bad thing. It is just a reflection of who we are as people. At the end of the day we do whatever gets us through the day and makes us feel good. For some people that comes through getting their SW fix satisfied with an acceptable substitute and for others that comes from knocking those people.
At the end of the say though and with rare exceptions all of you own "knockoffs" in some form or another. None of you renounce everything and walk naked into the desert to build your empire out of sand. So stop it already with the nonsense about people knocking each other off. It happens and the only two really reprehensible things about it are when someone does not acknowledge where they got the idea and when they or others engage in deliberate counterfeiting trying to pass off the fakes as real and get the same money as the real ones fetch.
The actual knocking off is simply what people do. Look around you. Everything you can touch in your house is the result of humans copying the production of other humans.
So get over it. I have and I have certainly lost more money due to knockoffs that most of you will ever earn. There are a lot of great SouthWest knockoffs out there and a lot of terrible ones. Hasn't affected SW in the least.
A knockoff can be a copy but it doesn't have to be.
A counterfeit is copy that carries the brand name of the original, illegally. That is a crime.
There are plenty of cues out there that can be counted as SouthWest knockoffs. They take some or all of the designs most associated with SW. Some go much farther than others.
Kao Fa, KF Cues, has built most of their business on copying just about everything SouthWest has ever done, to include a lot of the inlaid SW cues. Between them and a few other Taiwanese cue makers there are a lot of NOT-SouthWest shafts on real SouthWest butts in Taiwan and China.
The fact is that any time something is desirable then it's a target for getting knocked off to varying degrees. That's just how life goes. Do you consider yourself to be a copycat if you go out and buy the same brand of TV right after you see your neighbor with one? Or if you see that someone did something really cool with their lawn and you copy what they did and maybe improve on it a little do you feel bad about that? Or maybe your buddy built himself a really great workbench in his garage with some handy features and you build one for yourself?
Copying is what we do. It's in our DNA. We are genetic copies of our ancestors and social copies of our peers. In fact being original is frowned upon and mostly not tolerated. One has to become famous and useful as a money-making tool in order for their "originality" to be tolerated. If you people truly valued originality then there are several cue makers out there doing such out of the box stuff that they should be the ones getting $10,000 a cue.
SouthWest builds a freaking great cue. No doubt about it in my mind. I regret that I flipped mine to Salazar the day I got it for $400 more than I paid. I was in a bad spot in life but I still regret it. Some things are meant to be kept and treasured. BUT SouthWest's design is not something that is meant to considered the holy grail and unobtainable. It's a pool cue and with a ten year plus wait it's a HUGE target for other cue makers to try and fill the void. That includes cue makers in America, factories in Taiwan and China, dealers and distributors.
And honestly it's the circle of life if you really think about it. The demand for SouthWest cues remains high which fuels the growth of knockoffs which then further escalates the demand for the real thing. Why aren't Gucci and Prada and Hermes out of business when the amount of fake knockoffs far exceeds the amount of real bags carrying those labels? Simple, the buyers of the real stuff and the fakes live in two separate income brackets and rarely do they cross.
However EVERY person who buys a SouthWest looking cue KNOWS that they don't have a SouthWest. (some exceptions for people who were sold a copy of a SW as if it were real and people who genuinely believed that the cue they own is a SW).
They know in their heart that they don't have a "real" one and so they do everything that they can to justify the purchase to themselves and make up for not having a real one. So and so's cue hits better and I don't have to wait ten years. The quality is better..... SouthWest cues are overpriced, overhyped...... and so on. But they still own a cue that LOOKS LIKE a SW.
And that is not a bad thing. It is just a reflection of who we are as people. At the end of the day we do whatever gets us through the day and makes us feel good. For some people that comes through getting their SW fix satisfied with an acceptable substitute and for others that comes from knocking those people.
At the end of the say though and with rare exceptions all of you own "knockoffs" in some form or another. None of you renounce everything and walk naked into the desert to build your empire out of sand. So stop it already with the nonsense about people knocking each other off. It happens and the only two really reprehensible things about it are when someone does not acknowledge where they got the idea and when they or others engage in deliberate counterfeiting trying to pass off the fakes as real and get the same money as the real ones fetch.
The actual knocking off is simply what people do. Look around you. Everything you can touch in your house is the result of humans copying the production of other humans.
So get over it. I have and I have certainly lost more money due to knockoffs that most of you will ever earn. There are a lot of great SouthWest knockoffs out there and a lot of terrible ones. Hasn't affected SW in the least.
Because selling those fakes is a crime.
Selling SW knockoffs is not .
There is a difference between knockoffs and fakes.
Fakes are sold to be the real thing .
If it weren't a crime to sell FAKE Guccis, Pradas and Hermes, they might go out of business.
If it weren't a crime to sell FAKE JB Cases, you might also go out of business.
So, we really shouldn't get over it.
Oh cry me a river. You honestly think that the people who sell fake designer bags are AFRAID of the law?
Really? You think that enforcement of the laws governing these things puts any dent in the amount of them being made?
I know the difference Joey and I think I adequately explained it.
You think that fear of the law is preventing people from knocking me off and counterfeiting my stuff? Stop living in a fantasy world. If companies worth hundreds of billions of dollars can't stop counterfeiting with "the law" on their side then neither can I. I rely on my reputation as I always have and as every top brand does.
And that, in the end, is what allows SouthWest to maintain a 10+ year waiting list. Despite the VAST amount of SouthWest knockoffs out there and the great amount of cuemakers willing to do SouthWest style cues SouthWest STILL has a waiting list that most cuemakers would love to have.
And actually Joey selling SouthWest knockoffs can be a crime. If the product can be used to deceive a consumer with a high likelihood that the average consumer using commonly available information would believe that the product is genuine then it can be seen as a case of counterfeiting. The test is whether the product is confusingly similar or not, NOT just that it carries a brand name or not.
Many wholesalers sell knockoff bags without logos which are then resold to dealers who insinuate to consumers that these are "genuine" bags that were less than perfect and rejected by the "brand" and thus are actually "real" ones produced in the same factory. Only YOU can have it for $150 instead of $1500. That's still counterfeiting.
So get over it. It's life. Counterfeiting is a crime but it hasn't yet put anyone out of business that I know of. I am sure that some businesses closed because of it but again that's the way the cookie crumbles. Unless YOU, the consumer, are willing to pay for more stormtroopers to inspect every single container coming into the USA and every other civilized nation to find and destroy counterfeit products then YOU have to accept that YOU don't mind that knockoffs happen.
It's really simple. If you are a cuemaker and you want to copy someone's design then at least TRY to do something to make it your own but give credit where credit is due. If you are a consumer and you like the designs of a particular maker but their cues are inaccessible to you then don't make excuses and just buy what you like without bothering to justify it. You liked it, you had it made. That's how life goes.
Some people will never copy anything someone else did. Those are the truly unique artists and unfortunately in most cases also the broke and starving artists. Most makers of anything have to copy to some degree just to keep bread on the table. That's also a part of life.
All of it makes the world go around. The inventors and innovators who are driven to create new things and methods and the legion of people under them who take those ideas and distribute them globally to the ones who simply copy with no thought to quality just to be able to make their way in the world to the consumers for each level at all levels.
For me I am always flattered and pissed at the same time each time I come across knockoffs of my work. And if anyone making knockoffs can also outsell me to the point that my customers trust them more than me then I have to find another line of work.
So are you going to pay for more cops to stop the counterfeiting or not. Don't forget that crooks can buy cops as well and unlike you they can pick which ones they want.
It's all life. Just live it.
John, how many people or companies do you know went out because of counterfits?
How about this, how many products are we not going to see b/c the inventor decided it will just be stolen from him ?
The first person I know of who went out of business was the inventor of the RF/COAX switcher during the days of VHS and Betamax. I worked for my uncle's video store. We bought for some $50 or so. As soon as Taiwan copied his RF switcher and sold it for half the price, he was out of business.
How about the inventor of the leather wrap fixture ? De Angelo? Seen him lately ?
Should Ernie just sit and not whine about his design being stolen by another maker ?
I've never heard anyone go to jail for selling fake bushkas.
How about him? Did he go out of the wrap fixture business because someone else copied him? Or was it for some other reason?
Tell us about the amount of wrap jigs sold per year and how many sales he lost to copies?
Did he patent his invention? Did he then sue the infringers, assuming that someone did in fact infringe on his patent if he had one? Personally I have not seen any Chinese or Taiwanese company selling wrap jigs so who are these copiers that put DeAngelo out of business?
I didn't say that the originator shouldn't whine about copies. I whine about them all the time. I said that the people on this forum should stop going off about it because they do not understand the actual law surrounding intellectual property, they do not understand innovation built on emulation, they do not understand supply and demand market forces, and they are highly highly selective about how they apply their morality as to which people are condemned as "copiers" and which people get a free pass.
Basically it's like this. I have been a victim of copies more than anyone on this forum. I have suffered the economic rape associated with seeing almost verbatim knockoffs of all my models enter the market. I can complain about it. You can't. Because at the end of the day YOU won't do anything about it. You (the figurative you), won't go to bat for me when people knock off my work, all you will will do is complain if someone you like gets knocked off and be apathetic if someone you don't gets knocked off. So stop pretending to actually care and just let people do what they do.
The fact is that if you make something that works well or something that is desired then someone else will knock it off. In whole or in part. Still people are driven to continue to innovate and create in full knowledge that they will get copied. Big deal, so what. It pisses me off but like I said it's life.
The bottom line is this; If I invent something and I am not strong enough or savvy enough to protect it and outmarket my competition then my competition DESERVES to put me out of business. That's why it's called competition. My job only BEGINS with the invention of something. I have to bring it to market, establish relationships and nurture them, prove why my product is the better choice and continuously improve my products.
The guy with the RF switcher didn't have to be out of business (taking your word on your example). Nothing prevented him from going to Taiwan and having his product made there to be competitive on price. Nothing prevented him from selling his patented design to a much larger company who could better compete and protect the designs. Nothing prevented him from signing partnership deals. Nothing prevented him from negotiating with the company that copied him.
In fact those solutions are far more common than you think. In business everyone is a frenemy. One day you are fighting and the next you are in bed together. Talking about how bad copying is doesn't matter one bit because copying is hardwired into our DNA and you can stand on your soapbox until your beard reaches the ground and rail against it and nothing will change.
The person who gets knocked off has to deal with it as best they can. They aren't a charity. It's their business to deal with it and protect themselves and the consumers. Laurie charges x-amount of dollars to provide a Letter of Authentication (I think she does this). Otherwise she doesn't acknowledge the knockoffs at all. Why not? No need really as her customers, the ones who create the ten year waiting list, know full well where to get authentic SouthWest cues and who to buy from. In other words the MARKET provides the autocorrection to prevent anyone from trying to sell "counterfeit" SouthWests in any serious way.
That's part of the power of the net. While it's easier to present a knockoff to the world it's just as easy to spread the word about the knockoff to the world. Then the consumer gets to decide what sort of person they want to be, a wannabe who buys knockoffs or someone who values the real deal.
And really that's all I want to say about it. This topic is thorny and unfortunately not all who choose to put in their opinion are educated as to the basic law governing intellectual property, nor the economic history or impacts, pro and con governing patents, trademarks and copyrights.
Because of that the discussion is often sidetracked with ignorance and bias.
ok.
..........
Joey do you understand the difference between trademark infringement and counterfeiting?
I never said that counterfeiting is RIGHT, I said it exists and that to date at least in the case of the big brands none of them have been put out of business over it.
I swear sometimes it's scary how much some of you stalk me.
It took me a minute or two read and re-read this post. I have to agree. You see it from cars to phones to you name it
.If it seems to be selling it becomes the thing to sell. For the record, SW cues are kind of just a Kersenbrock knock off really. Jerry stuck very close design wise to the person that taught him to make cues without adding much to make them stand out as his own. Ernie Martinez in contrast learned to make cues at Showcase, But he developed a very very unique style. his cues are not at all Showcase knock offs. But surely, SW cues could be put into a "Kersenbrock style" category quite easily.
So are the SW knock offs not truly Kersenbrock knock offs?
Wow. 9 years since the last reply.
I'm here because I thought I was stealing an unmarked satin South West or Kersenbrock cue for $1400 off eBay recently. The eBay description stated the cue was made by South West.
I'm not an expert at identifying either. I own a predated South West, but it was authenticated by Laurie Franklin with an LOA.
When the unmarked cue arrived, I immediately sent it to Las Vegas. A week later, Laurie called and let me know it was not a South West or Kersenbrock and why. I asked for her to email me so I could use it to get a refund.
Last week, I started the refund process with resistance from the seller. He claimed he didn't say it was a South West. After a few days he agreed to refund my money.
The unmarked cue arrived from Laurie on Tuesday. I sent it on its way back to the seller Wednesday.
When the seller gets the cue, I'll get my money. I'm just out $90 I spent on shipping the cue to Las Vegas and back.
For those who want to buy an unmarked South West, Laurie said she will do an escrow service for South West Cues. She's cool to talk to on the phone.
I'm here because I thought I was stealing an unmarked satin South West or Kersenbrock cue for $1400 off eBay recently. The eBay description stated the cue was made by South West.
I'm not an expert at identifying either. I own a predated South West, but it was authenticated by Laurie Franklin with an LOA.
When the unmarked cue arrived, I immediately sent it to Las Vegas. A week later, Laurie called and let me know it was not a South West or Kersenbrock and why. I asked for her to email me so I could use it to get a refund.
Last week, I started the refund process with resistance from the seller. He claimed he didn't say it was a South West. After a few days he agreed to refund my money.
The unmarked cue arrived from Laurie on Tuesday. I sent it on its way back to the seller Wednesday.
When the seller gets the cue, I'll get my money. I'm just out $90 I spent on shipping the cue to Las Vegas and back.
For those who want to buy an unmarked South West, Laurie said she will do an escrow service for South West Cues. She's cool to talk to on the phone.
Sorry about the bad e-bay purchase. It's a good thing that Laurie quickly verified that cue was not a genuine SW.
South West cues have a reputation for a legendary hit, but I've also noticed that a fair number of them develop roll as they age. Does anyone know if SW cores their cues to mitigate this issue? I'm interested in getting a SW style cue, but I want something that will stay straight for my lifetime.
South West cues have a reputation for a legendary hit, but I've also noticed that a fair number of them develop roll as they age. Does anyone know if SW cores their cues to mitigate this issue? I'm interested in getting a SW style cue, but I want something that will stay straight for my lifetime.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Do you realize that the standard thing on counterfeits is for the seller to keep the item and get a full refund? If the seller gets it back he can peddle his counterfeit elsewhere. I mean, it's probably the right thing to do in this case but the seller is REALLY lucky to get anything back. Ebay is pretty ruthless about dealing with counterfeits, it's just that no one reports them and they don't really do anything until it's brought to their attention.