Patrick Johnson said:
Could you explain to me how the tip of a cue will grip a ball when putting any other type force on it, but not when this technique is applied?
Spinning the cue on shots
- Thread starter penoy78
- Start date
Could you explain to me how the tip of a cue will grip a ball when putting any other type force on it, but not when this technique is applied?
> If you watch Archer's stroke in slo-mo,Sigel's,or Niels Feijen's,thier cue is most certainly spinning when they come thru the ball. It's either a product of their fingers curling under the cue as they swing it back,OR as a result of a deliberate hand action. Either way,it produces a little more speed or "pop" to the stroke,as a result of increased wrist snap. Archer's cue looks like it takes about 3 complete turns in his hand when he's using center ball or drawing it. Niels' cue spins,but in the opposite direction. Other examples I can think off the top of my head are Rafael,Danny Harriman,and Hennessee. Tommy D.
Sorry to ask another question, but this time it's related to the main topic.
I would think that if the cue is spinning at the moment the tip hits the cue ball that a miscue is more likely. In other words I would think that the maximum tip offset without miscue is less than it would be for a non-spinning cue.
Is this hypothesis correct, or if it hasn't been proven on way or another, does anyone share this belief from a physics standpoint?
I would think that if the cue is spinning at the moment the tip hits the cue ball that a miscue is more likely. In other words I would think that the maximum tip offset without miscue is less than it would be for a non-spinning cue.
Is this hypothesis correct, or if it hasn't been proven on way or another, does anyone share this belief from a physics standpoint?
Try this:
Unscrew your shaft (to make it easier to handle) and hold it vertical with the tip centered on top of the CB - be sure you've chalked well. Now "screw" the shaft with your fingers until you get the CB to rotate. Even though tip/ball contact lasts only 1/1000 of a second during a real shot, take all the time you need.
We'll wait here.
pj
chgo
Well...based on this thread I think I have a million $$ idea!!!!
How about putting ball bearings in the front and back of the handle section.....so that the cue will spin freely.
Then cut a screw type thread around the forearm section of the cue. wrap a piece of string around the threaded section of the forearm....
The take your back hand grip on the cue...with your bridge hand (right before you get down on the shot) pull the string quickly like those old wooden tops or a lawn mower and get the cue spinning at high speed.
Then take your shot.....or start a fire...which ever comes first...
Seriously...what exactly is spinning the cue (during impact) supposed to accomplish???
How about putting ball bearings in the front and back of the handle section.....so that the cue will spin freely.
Then cut a screw type thread around the forearm section of the cue. wrap a piece of string around the threaded section of the forearm....
The take your back hand grip on the cue...with your bridge hand (right before you get down on the shot) pull the string quickly like those old wooden tops or a lawn mower and get the cue spinning at high speed.
Then take your shot.....or start a fire...which ever comes first...
Seriously...what exactly is spinning the cue (during impact) supposed to accomplish???
Blackjack said:Jim, I was not talking about Efren or Francisco. I'm sure Efren has a pretty unique stroke. I have seen him twirl some spin in the past.
Here is a direct quote from the foremost authority of "twirling the cue" - Keith made this post a few days ago -
I have been using this and teaching this for years, drum away.
First, let me say that my previous comment that those teaching this technique should be "drummed out of the business" was an unfortunate exaggeration that I withdraw and apologize for.
I meant no disrespect to you and enjoy your posts.
Can you explain the physics of the technique and what it accomplishes that can't be achieved without having to add yet another element of physical movement in an already difficult series of mechanics?
As far as who does and doesn't use that technique, I repeat that there is a limit to the value of that information. That's why I brought up Efren and Busta's strokes.
The notion that because they put MAJOR loops into their strokes does not suggest that many people in the world should try to duplicate their techniques and in fact, very few do.
I would have to add Keith's "side arm" stroke which is almost unique to him among the other great champions and which I would GUESS he would not teach to others.
For ANY technique to be adopted...except out of sheer curiosity or personal idiosyncracy (Ralf's stance...Feijen's eye position)...it should be KNOWN to produce results that cannot be produced by other, less complicated means.
Personally, I would want to see slo mo video to demonstrate what that techniques produces before spending any time on it.
Dr. DAVE???
Finally, back to the matter of teaching the technique, with respect to all, let me just offer the view that until the student has reached AT LEAST the APA 8 level, there is SO much work to do on physical mechanics, shot selection and table generalship that turning away from THOSE issues to spend time on even more complex mechanics doesn't seem to me to be an optimal strategy.
BUT...having said that, pool is supposed to be fun and few of us harbor any delusions about becoming champions so if twirling the cue is FUN then, hey...what the hell!/...twirl that sucker!! (-:
But I'll spend my time trying to control my draw shots in 1/4 diamond increments up to 3 diamonds...ditto follow shots up to 5 diamonds...improving my safety game and the myriad of other issues that come up in almost every rack.
Regards,
Jim
I would love to see something too....
I can't get my head around what the heck might happen to the cb.I'm thinking nothing happens,but others who play pretty dam well are sure there is some upside in knowing this shot.
Some slow mo vid would go a long way for me too...my under active imagination is coming up blank on this one.
This kinda reminds me a bit of the first few BHE threads I read.Once I saw the video it all made sense...before then I just read with my head leaned over to the side like a confused puppy...reading,but not quite getting it.
say what?
I've never heard of this tactic being used before. I can't see where it would help out the shot. I practice this method mostly = line up shot, aim cueball, glance at object ball, aim at cueball (2nd time), then shoot.
Spinning the cue sounds like a shark tactic that would be used by weaker players.
-Peace
I've never heard of this tactic being used before. I can't see where it would help out the shot. I practice this method mostly = line up shot, aim cueball, glance at object ball, aim at cueball (2nd time), then shoot.
Spinning the cue sounds like a shark tactic that would be used by weaker players.
-Peace
Patrick Johnson said:
CORRECTION: I assumed you were advocating the twist but realize that you were doing the opposite so my post is in agreement with yours. But the friction I pointed out may contradict our doubts about the viability of this shot. I say that because the friction mentioned could PREVENT CB rotation when, absent that friction, I suppose it could happen. What follows is my original post.
Jim
I have my doubts.
First, in your example, there is an opposing and immovable object...the surface of the table...so that the cb is pinned between the table and the tip.
If you placed the CB on the world's slickest surface (the air in front of the cb is frictionless for all intents and purposes related to pool) and then performed your experiment, I wonder if the CB could be made to spin.
But curious, I unscrewed by shaft...place the 9 ball a ball from the side rail with its stripe vertical and gripped the shaft at its end between my thumb and first finger so I could get maximum twist.
Aiming at the opposite diamond, I executed a short stroke while twisting the shaft as much as possible.
In 10 such attempts, I was unable to generate any rotation except about 10 degrees...i.e. the stripe wobbled a little but never spun even 1/4 of a rotation.
As you have pointed out on numerous occasions, people do things subconsciously and until I see the slo mo video, I will continue to suspect that the spin is almost entirely explained by an off-center hit.
Regards,
Jim
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Tommy-D said:
I have never seen any such rotation in Archer's stroke. Can you post a link to a youtube or some other source that would demonstrate that?
Regardless, a cue spinning about its longitudinal axis...like a drive shaft, cannot, I believe, impart any FORWARD motion...becuase the spin is sideways to the CB not toward it.
Wrist snap that contributes to cue speed is a snap that projects the grip "fist" FORWARD.
Conversely, a twist of the wrist so as to create the drive shaft twist may be referred to as a "snap" I suppose,,,but not the kind of snap that contributes in any way to forward speed of the cue or CB.
AFAIC.
Regards,
Jim
I believe this after market modification is available in most Chinatown's or Little Italy's. It is a wonderful enhancement. It inspires through the most dazzling post contact spins upon the cue ball rendering spectators and opponents jaw dropped.
Its a surprise it has just recently come into the spotlight.
Its a surprise it has just recently come into the spotlight.
Here's something that I noticed. By "spinning" the cue like a screwdriver on my masse shots, I noticed MORE action on it. I was a non-believer as well but after testing it with masse shots I have to say; maybe there is some truth to it. Instead of arguing this how about all of us try 5 masse shots with and 5 without spinning the cue. (Please don't rip your cloth though.) And then come back and repost what we've found.
penoy78 said:
I guess my point/question is...what kind of a masse, half masse or any other kind of spin shot can't be made just as successfully without twirling and if there are such shots, how many times in 1000 racks would they be required. (maybe 2 would be my guess).
Stated another way...why use a sledge hammer to pound a nail?
Regards,
Jim
Okay, I was leaving the tournament last night over at Chris' and I saw Santos playing Gil in the front room. So I decided to go over and really get a good look. He does indeed spin his cue. I couldn't really tell though if he continues to spin it right through to the point of contact. So I asked him, and then Gil, because I wasn't sure if he really understood what I was trying to ask, and the answer was YES. The weird thing was, not all filipino players do this, not all pros do it either. Are there any real benefits from doing it? I don't know. Maybe we should study the strokes of the top players some more to find out.Tommy-D said:
trueblu8 said:
I have seen players (Santos) spin the cue prior to the actual stroke...I think it may be to get a feel of the cue.
I can't recall seeing ANY player that actually spins the cue during impact...(Other than Earl and Buddy twisting the wrist up as a form of BHE during the stroke)...I would call what Earl and Buddy do a twist not a spin of the cue....
For some reason I feel like this thread is some kind of April Fools Joke..
Just out of sheer "cat like" curiousity I tried to "spin" the cue during the stoke just to see what the heck benefit there could be.....Frankly I honestly did not have the coordination to "spin" the cue during impact.....The most I could do was a wrist twist that had no positive benefit...
It did have a dramatic negative effect on my accuracy and consistency...
I sure would like someone to either post a video of an actual spinning cue "during impact" or post and very delayed "April Fools"......
If anything...they got me to at least waste some time actually trying this technique.
If this is actually for real and not a sick joke of some kind......I doubt I have the eye hand coordination to pull it off......(and I consider myself on the plus side of eye hand coordination type skills)
I don't spin the cue, but I do at times have a full turn/twist of the wrist as i stroke through the cue ball on heavy english shots (especially outside bottom). It helps me really juice up the cue ball while still maintaining accuracy.
Why? I have no idea. But it works for me. It could very well be that it just helps me hit further out on the edge of the ball than i would with my normal stroke. It doesn't really matter why it works for me, just that I'm comfortable with it and that it helps my game.
Why? I have no idea. But it works for me. It could very well be that it just helps me hit further out on the edge of the ball than i would with my normal stroke. It doesn't really matter why it works for me, just that I'm comfortable with it and that it helps my game.
"feathers up"
hang-the-9 refered to a practice used by some old-timers called "feathers up"; spinning the cue stick so that the densest part of the grain of the shaft always faced up, with the belief that you would get a more consistent and stiffer hit on the cue ball with the shaft always oriented in the same longitudinal direction. I can imagine that some people watching this practice would incorrectly assume that this was done in order to impart some mysterious english. Spinning the cue stick during the stroke, or turning your wrist in or out during the execution of the stroke, adds an unnecessary element to your stroke mechanics which will make you less consistent and accurate in the execution of stroke and less precise in the tip placement on the cueball in my opinion. I know that Freddy the Beard and Piggy Banks advocate it on some types of bank shots but I think you'd be making a BIG mistake doing this until you have truely mastered your mechanics (which takes years and years}. My advice is to not mess with it.
hang-the-9 refered to a practice used by some old-timers called "feathers up"; spinning the cue stick so that the densest part of the grain of the shaft always faced up, with the belief that you would get a more consistent and stiffer hit on the cue ball with the shaft always oriented in the same longitudinal direction. I can imagine that some people watching this practice would incorrectly assume that this was done in order to impart some mysterious english. Spinning the cue stick during the stroke, or turning your wrist in or out during the execution of the stroke, adds an unnecessary element to your stroke mechanics which will make you less consistent and accurate in the execution of stroke and less precise in the tip placement on the cueball in my opinion. I know that Freddy the Beard and Piggy Banks advocate it on some types of bank shots but I think you'd be making a BIG mistake doing this until you have truely mastered your mechanics (which takes years and years}. My advice is to not mess with it.
daveb said:
Right...feathers up was the original L/D shaft technique! (-:
I agree with your added complexity remark...would have to be shown that it creates any spin that can't be accomplished without added complexity...and regarding banks, they are attempted by PROS maybe once in 20-30 racks (8,9,10,14.1) so if it has any value at all it would be in 1 hole and bank pool.
I sure would love to see a slo mo video of the technique.
Regards,
Jim