Spliced or floating points

[CaptainJR]

I'm reading up on what I want in a cue stick. I came across these terms and wondered if someone could expound on them a little.
Thank you
JR

 

[cueman]

I'm reading up on what I want in a cue stick. I came across these terms and wondered if someone could expound on them a little.
Thank you
JR

Spliced points are those that are cut into the cue using V-grooves and produce the sharp ended points you see on bar type cues and most of the older cues. Floating points are put in using flat bottom pockets just like the smaller inlays in most cues are installed. You can find many at the below link that can build the type cue you want.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com

 

[bandido]

Below is the meaning of the word splice.
Main Entry: splice
Pronunciation: 'splIs
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): spliced; splic·ing
Etymology: obsolete Dutch splissen; akin to Middle Dutch splitten to split
1 a : to unite (as two ropes) by interweaving the strands b : to unite (as lengths of magnetic tape) by lapping two ends together or by applying a piece that laps upon two ends and making fast
2 : to unite, link, or insert as if by splicing
3 : to combine (genetic material) from either the same organism or different organisms <use enzymes to cut and splice genes>
- splic·er noun

In cuemaking, it refers to v-grooved (2 contact faces), flat bottomed (3 contact faces) or butterfly (which is a single angled contact face) main joinery of different woods in the forearm of a cue. Modern day "half splices", a term specific to cuemaking, is nothing more than an inlay even if they're v-grooved, butterfly or flat inlayed.

Floating points are so termed because the point inlays are not in intimate contact with the forearm/handle joint thus the term "floating".

Edwin Reyes

 

[classiccues]

In cuemaking, it refers to v-grooved (2 contact faces), flat bottomed (3 contact faces) or butterfly (which is a single angled contact face) main joinery of different woods in the forearm of a cue. Modern day "half splices", a term specific to cuemaking, is nothing more than an inlay even if they're v-grooved, butterfly or flat inlayed.
Edwin Reyes

Edwin,
I have heard you say this before. I have a question though, when the forearm of a v-splice is connected to the handle, is that not a third contact point? Also how is a floating point 3 contact surfaced when you really just have one continuous edge and the bottom?

Joe

 

[WilleeCue]

Edwin,
I have heard you say this before. I have a question though, when the forearm of a v-splice is connected to the handle, is that not a third contact point? Also how is a floating point 3 contact surfaced when you really just have one continuous edge and the bottom?
Joe

Its all semanatics, Joe, but you are correct.
A half splice is a floating inlay just like the flat bottom ones are.
I guess you could even look at the half and full splice as one continious glued edge if you wanted to.
Ok ... so what did we prove or learn from that?

 

[hadjcues]

I think the floating point is a 3 contact point based on how it is glued on the forearm pocket, left and right side and base of the inlay/pocket.

It is right you mentioned the vee-points as 3 but I think Bandido was referring to it as how it is glued on the forearm and how many sides to it come in contactwith only the forearm and not with the handle or ring at the a-joint.

 

[bandido]

Edwin,
I have heard you say this before. I have a question though, when the forearm of a v-splice is connected to the handle, is that not a third contact point? Also how is a floating point 3 contact surfaced when you really just have one continuous edge and the bottom?

Joe

I was referring to the section that normally is refered to when splices or floating is mentioned, the forearm which is a sub-structure of the cue. If the forearm to handle joint will be considered then another contact surface is added to the numbers that I mentioned earlier. 3 for v-splice (2 long and the base to handle), 4 for flat bottom (2 sides, 1bottom and the base to handle) and 2 for butterfly( forearm to inlay and base to handle).
I'm just talking about what are refered to as "half-spliced" which are actually just inlays done in different inlaying methods.

If we're talking main structure joinery, forearm to handle, then we do have the true v-splice, the butterfly splice and the tenon and pocket (A-joint) as the mostly used splicing (joining 2 individual parts or sub-structures to form 1) method. I've seen fingerjoints used as in Viking's and core (for the forearm) and handle as one piece.
Edwin Reyes

 

[bandido]

A half splice is a floating inlay just like the flat bottom ones are.

Floating off of what Willee? A "floating point" is termed as such because it doesn't have an intimate connection with the forearm/handle or decorative ring jointing surface.

I guess you could even look at the half and full splice as one continious glued edge if you wanted to.

A full splice does have one continuous edge "of the same material from point to point(not talking about veneered). A half splice doesn't as the function of interlocking the handle to the forearm, as a full-splice does, doesn't exist. As for "glued edge", yes they both do have continuous glued edges.

Ok ... so what did we prove or learn from that?

Nothing to prove just to learn since the original poster asked for people to expound on the subject.
Edwin Reyes

 

[classiccues]

I was referring to the section that normally is refered to when splices or floating is mentioned, the forearm which is a sub-structure of the cue. If the forearm to handle joint will be considered then another contact surface is added to the numbers that I mentioned earlier. 3 for v-splice (2 long and the base to handle), 4 for flat bottom (2 sides, 1bottom and the base to handle) and 2 for butterfly( forearm to inlay and base to handle).
I'm just talking about what are refered to as "half-spliced" which are actually just inlays done in different inlaying methods.

Edwin Reyes

Edwin,
So are you saying regardless of the shape YOU only count a floating point as 2 sides? What if the floating point is actualy a starburst shape? Or Joe Golds Shieshido design? IMHO its one edge, period. If you inlay a floating circle does it still have 2 sides, and 1 bottom? Also normally a floating point doesn't go through the base of the forearm therefore never adding a contact surface to the handle. Technically a V-splice does touch the handle assembly so it "bottoms out" on the handle for lack of a better word. Therefore giving it a true third area of contact.

Joe

 

[bandido]

Edwin,
Also normally a floating point doesn't go through the base of the forearm therefore never adding a contact surface to the handle.
Joe

Ah Joe, we're not connecting here. Notice that most of what I wrote down is concerning the so called "half-spliced" or landed points. My only mention of floating points is it not being in intimate contact with the forearm/ handle or ring joint. So what you're saying above is just an echo of what I said about floating points. Check it out. There's no sense mentioning quantity of contact surfaces with a floating point as it can be any number.

Technically a V-splice does touch the handle assembly so it "bottoms out" on the handle for lack of a better word. Therefore giving it a true third area of contact.

This is also an echo of what I said. But in my initial post I was just referring to the forearm sub-structure WITHOUT the handle. Isn't the point configuration in the FOREARM what people are referring to when they say spliced or floating? Isn't that what CaptainJR asked for people to expound on?

 

[bandido]

Here are my posts Joe, Posts #3 and #7 of this thread. Below I was just referring to the forearm without the handle so there isn't a forearm/handle surface contact yet. The handle at this point DOES NOT exist. As you can see too, I never mentioned "sides" when I wrote about "floating points".

In cuemaking, it refers to v-grooved (2 contact faces), flat bottomed (3 contact faces) or butterfly (which is a single angled contact face) main joinery of different woods in the forearm of a cue. Modern day "half splices", a term specific to cuemaking, is nothing more than an inlay even if they're v-grooved, butterfly or flat inlayed.

Floating points are so termed because the point inlays are not in intimate contact with the forearm/handle joint thus the term "floating".

Edwin Reyes

And here, I responded to your mentioning the forearm/handle connection. The handle at this point DOES exist.

I was referring to the section that normally is refered to when splices or floating is mentioned, the forearm which is a sub-structure of the cue. If the forearm to handle joint will be considered then another contact surface is added to the numbers that I mentioned earlier. 3 for v-splice (2 long and the base to handle), 4 for flat bottom (2 sides, 1bottom and the base to handle) and 2 for butterfly( forearm to inlay and base to handle).
I'm just talking about what are refered to as "half-spliced" which are actually just inlays done in different inlaying methods.

If we're talking main structure joinery, forearm to handle, then we do have the true v-splice, the butterfly splice and the tenon and pocket (A-joint) as the mostly used splicing (joining 2 individual parts or sub-structures to form 1) method. I've seen fingerjoints used as in Viking's and core (for the forearm) and handle as one piece.
Edwin Reyes

 

[bandido]

Edwin,
So are you saying regardless of the shape YOU only count a floating point as 2 sides? What if the floating point is actualy a starburst shape? Or Joe Golds Shieshido design? IMHO its one edge, period. If you inlay a floating circle does it still have 2 sides, and 1 bottom?
Joe

Huh? We're talking basic structure so that CaptainJR can understand the "basic" characteristics. Starbust? Shisheido? Those are design styles employed by the cuemaker whether they be for landed or floating points. What is being discussed here are spliced, landed points is what I call them as they're in intimate contact with the A-joint, or floating, which are not in intimate contact with the A-joint.

Edwin Reyes

 

[CaptainJR]

OK! Thank you everyone.

Looks like we certainly covered it.

I kind of like the idea of the older style spliced rather than the half spliced or floating.

Next question.

Does having a spliced (vs. HS or FP) have any advantages as far as stoking feel, stick value, stick longevity, looks?

Can you tell by looking at a cue which way it was made?

Original cost isn't very important really, I know before this is said and done I'm going to spend some $$.

Thanks again
CaptJR

 

[cueman]

A full splice butt tends to hit a little stiffer than a half splice butt. One exception would be if a long enough screw was put in at the half splice. But that also puts weight at the front of the wrap area. You can create more options for how you want a cue to look with the half splice but the balance and feel will be a little different. On my site www.cuesmith.com on the CUES page is one full splice cue on top. All the rest are half splice. As you can see the half splice cues are fancier. Another option for a well balanced cue with floating points and weight evenly distributed throughout the butt is to forget all splices and go with one piece of wood and inlay it how you want to. You are limited with what woods can be used, but they make great playing cues with no glue joints to swell or break down over time. And no internal screws to create buzzes. I do hope you find the cue that is just right for you. If I can help you any further feel free to contact me.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com
www.cuesmith.com

 

[merylane]

difference

the difference i would say is spliced points done properly acually become part of the structure as a whole. exp. if you take inlayed points out of a cue you will still have a connected structure and could still play with said cue. because those points (floating) are just an after though used for decoration and no other porpouse. but spliced or fullspliced points are acually part of the structure and if you take them away you dont have a functional cue . because the handle will no longer be connected to the forearm. as gus's or george's. the handle never touches the core forearm wood ( usually a type of maple) it touches the points wood (splice) s therefore there is somthing inbetween the handle and forearm wood where as the handle is connected directly to the fore arm wood in the floating(panto'd cnc'd) type.
so in conclusion george's inlays were to the structure of his cues like floating(panto'd cnc'd) are to the structure of those cues...... nothing just decoration!!! there one is structure one is not ! what do you think joe?

 

[bandido]

so in conclusion george's inlays were to the structure of his cues like floating(panto'd cnc'd) are to the structure of those cues...... nothing just decoration!!! there one is structure one is not ! what do you think joe?

Decoration? Not always. If maple, weighs around 46 lbs./ cu. ft., is used as the main forearm wood and 4 long flat bottomed points are inlayed into it, usually ebony which is around 72 lbs/ cu ft., wouldn't you say that this denser section replacing the lower density section will raise the structural strength of the lower density wood?

 

[WilleeCue]

the difference i would say is spliced points done properly acually become part of the structure as a whole. QUOTE]

All inlays become part of the whole.
Perhaps some like the feel of a full spliced cue better than a half splice cue.
Others might prefer a solid but inlayed cue.
It depends a lot on what you the player like and what the cuemaker has produced.
There is no ideal cue for everyone as some like a dull feel and others prefer a more livelier feedback.

Here is what Burton Spain had to say about splices.
Refering to the possabality of a buzz developing at the glued joints he said...
"The half-spliced blank is an alligator that cant be trusted, With a full-spliced blank the source of trouble has been eleminated".

I think most modern cuemakers have learned how to deal with that problem and it should not be a problem any longer.

"A full-spliced four prong cue without veneers has more spine than a solid cue".
"The full-spliced four prong contributes to a livelier feel; like a tuning fork the butt vibrates with energy".

What about a four prong full-splice with veneers?

"It is even superior to the plain full-spliced, four prong".
Quoted from 'Making Blanks' by Burton Spain.

You can disagree with Burton Spain or you can agree with him.
What should matter most ito the player is if the cue that you hold in your hands feels right to YOU and is what YOU like in the way of weight, balance, feedback, and looks.

There is an old syaing that you got to kiss a lot of frogs just to find one prince. Finding YOUR ideal cue is a lot like that also.

 

[merylane]

edwin i would have to dissagree because your not affecting the weekest link! do you really think if you built 2 cues the same but put big inlays in one it would be stronger? not to mention no one said anything about strength.

 

[merylane]

willie thats not true. a car would be of no use with out tires.if you took the inlays out you could still play pool but if you took the splice out you could not play pool. could you add inlays to a cue as an after thought ? yes. could you add asplice not really it would take major reconstruction! right? which is my point the splice is part of the construction. as for buzzing i didnt know we were talking about buzzing. but if we were i would say 95% or more of the buzzing ive seen has been some where else!

 

[WilleeCue]

willee thats not true. a car would be of no use with out tires.if you took the inlays out you could still play pool but if you took the splice out you could not play pool.

What is not true?
Everything I said, everything I quoted Burton Spain as saying, ot just one part of it?

I was just stating that a cue is the sum of all its parts.
It is what it is.
How it plays depends upon how it is made ... simple as that.
All things being the same weight and size, do you think you could tell the difference between a plain solid cue, floating point, a half splice, and a full splice cue in a blind test just by how they played? I doubt you could even tell the joint type if it were taped over. In fact there was a test done like that years ago and most people could not tell what joint was what.
If you can’t feel the difference then does it really matter?
It is all the bits and pieces together that make the hit and feel of a cue.