Sportsbars and Pool....a Conundrum of Opposites

[philly]

You are only 99% wrong.

Loss of business is the overwhelming reason most poolrooms closed.

Bar/Pub/League Barbox play isn't the only reason for loss of players - just the ones
that are still actively playing pool.

Dale(who hardly ever plays in a Pub)

Yes loss of business is the reason. Also after reading many threads and talking to people at the Expo nobody plays on 9 footers any more and it's in the pubs where you will find the bar boxes. I will bet that 40% of the Expo field won't go near a 9 footer. It's absolutely lamentable.

 

[macguy]

You are only 99% wrong.

Loss of business is the overwhelming reason most poolrooms closed.

Bar/Pub/League Barbox play isn't the only reason for loss of players - just the ones
that are still actively playing pool.

Dale(who hardly ever plays in a Pub)

Well, I think I made a pretty good case. There is a chicken and egg thing here as well. Did the closing of pool rooms cause the increase of the bar play or the other way around. I will say I owned a pool room on a busy street with like half a dozen popular bars close by with tables. Few of those bar players ever came to the pool room. They almost seemed afraid of the big tables.

I think one thing that happened was, the bars developed their own customer base. Many of these people are new players who were never pool room players in the first place. You have to remember, bars with tables are going on 40 years or more now. These are a new generation of players who are in fact, bar players. They are not coming in a pool room if it was free. The bar table is all they know and they like it as well.
You wonder where you go from there as a pool room owner. They are a customer base you can't tap into it would seem.

 

[336Robin]

1600 sq ft room


A 1600 square foot room on the median to low rent is $10 per square foot per year that is 16,000 dollars a year divided by 12 months....= $ 1, 333.00 per month

Do you think you can put enough pool tables in that space to make you enough money just to pay the rent?

 

[macguy]

A 1600 square foot room on the median to low rent is $10 per square foot per year that is 16,000 dollars a year divided by 12 months....= $ 1, 333.00 per month

Do you think you can put enough pool tables in that space to make you enough money just to pay the rent?

If the room is 40 x 40 with no obstructions you can put 6 tables in there with almost no where to sit or stand. They would take up the whole room at only 5 feet apart.

 

[336Robin]

Exactly

If the room is 40 x 40 with no obstructions you can put 6 tables in there with almost no where to sit or stand. They would take up the whole room at only 5 feet apart.

Exactly my point. Even at 6 tables you have to make a sizeable amount of money in the course of a month, plus someone has to have a wage out of there. If the room were bigger there would be bigger rent. I've seen one room, that is closed now that would have fit the profile of an Uptown Pool Room that had 8 tables and a place to sit in the back. There was no way he was making the kind of money to pay todays per square foot fees. The only way to make it work is at $5 dollar per square foot.

That rate might be consistent with some old run down buildings but the minute you fix it up nice and people start coming in the owner is going to want more for his space so when you lease renews you are likely leaving. All of which proves your point in that there was not a lack of business as much as it was an increase in the price of rental property. There was a room 45 minutes from here that this was the exact story. The room closed and the guy didnt rent it for 3 yrs empty but he demanded an increase in rent and eventually got it because everything else is so high.

Pool can be the game of the common man all it wants but unless you own the building stand alone pool rooms where pool is the only thing might be a thing of the past.

 

[tim913]

I was taking the kids somewhere last week so I got the chance to stop by a place where pool was 'THE THING'. There were leagues during the week, and hard to find a place to sit on Fri and Sat night...$5 9-ball all night on the challenge table and more on the side tables. All that's in there now are pub tables and video poker games...no pool tables at all!

I have a 9' GC at home and although my wife and I have many parties, and the kids have their parties, kids 16 yo and up, the pool table is never touched. They play air hockey and ping pong, and then go for the Xbox and PS4. It wasn't this way when I was a kid...we all played pool.

 

[macguy]

Exactly my point. Even at 6 tables you have to make a sizeable amount of money in the course of a month, plus someone has to have a wage out of there. If the room were bigger there would be bigger rent. I've seen one room, that is closed now that would have fit the profile of an Uptown Pool Room that had 8 tables and a place to sit in the back. There was no way he was making the kind of money to pay todays per square foot fees. The only way to make it work is at $5 dollar per square foot.

That rate might be consistent with some old run down buildings but the minute you fix it up nice and people start coming in the owner is going to want more for his space so when you lease renews you are likely leaving. All of which proves your point in that there was not a lack of business as much as it was an increase in the price of rental property. There was a room 45 minutes from here that this was the exact story. The room closed and the guy didnt rent it for 3 yrs empty but he demanded an increase in rent and eventually got it because everything else is so high.

Pool can be the game of the common man all it wants but unless you own the building stand alone pool rooms where pool is the only thing might be a thing of the past.

Owning the building is a catch 22. If you own the building indirectly you are paying rent. You are there running a business trying to get by when you could be sitting home collecting rent on the same space.

The thing with a pool room is most of the time you are not making any money. Most of the time the tables just sit there taking up space. But when you hit your peak hours you have to be able to milk them for as much as you can.

It is hard to put a number on it but a place with six or 8 tables even when you are busy is not producing enough to off set all the down time. Where as a 20+ table room on the other hand when you are full with a waiting list it makes a lot of money in a short time.
Somewhere in there lies the numbers you have to work out.

In the movie the Hustler Charlie wants to retire. Remember the line, "8 tables and a little hand book on the side". That sounded nice in 1961 but today unless you have like no overhead it is hard with such a small place. A good bar business with it would almost be a requirement but not just as a pool room

I actually see a pool room as a retirement type of business. A business you may like because you are a pool player but are at a stage in your life where you don't really need to make a fortune.

Just stay in the black, provide a few jobs and a nice place for people to play pool, promote the sport as well as a few bucks for yourself. I have been in a lot of rooms that fit this profile.

One of the first places I played in was a 10 table place owned by "Old Joe". He opened around noon and often just left and we ran the place ourselves. I doubt anyone ever stole a dime from Joe.

I hope I am not having old memories clouded by the "Good old days" syndrome. I just remember how much I loved that place, everybody did.

 

[macguy]

I was taking the kids somewhere last week so I got the chance to stop by a place where pool was 'THE THING'. There were leagues during the week, and hard to find a place to sit on Fri and Sat night...$5 9-ball all night on the challenge table and more on the side tables. All that's in there now are pub tables and video poker games...no pool tables at all!

I have a 9' GC at home and although my wife and I have many parties, and the kids have their parties, kids 16 yo and up, the pool table is never touched. They play air hockey and ping pong, and then go for the Xbox and PS4. It wasn't this way when I was a kid...we all played pool.

Wow, that is unusual. I have a billiard room combo gym in the house and no matter what the occasion, when people are over they all end up in the billiard room. I have been to quite a few parties in nice homes with pool tables and they are always being played on. People seem to like pool when it is presented to them.

 

[336Robin]

Pool is Playable

Wow, that is unusual. I have a billiard room combo gym in the house and no matter what the occasion, when people are over they all end up in the billiard room. I have been to quite a few parties in nice homes with pool tables and they are always being played on. People seem to like pool when it is presented to them.

Absolutely, Some of my best play these days is being done on home tables and that is precisely why I am starting a project to convert the Garage into the Man Cave. People do love pool, what is there not to love, it just doesnt make a great deal of sense business wise a lot of times. As you suggest you have to have enough tables to capture the profits when its time to get them and all of that takes a sizeable investment.

 

[macguy]

Absolutely, Some of my best play these days is being done on home tables and that is precisely why I am starting a project to convert the Garage into the Man Cave. People do love pool, what is there not to love, it just doesnt make a great deal of sense business wise a lot of times. As you suggest you have to have enough tables to capture the profits when its time to get them and all of that takes a sizeable investment.

You have to wonder where is the meeting point for a bottom line. In other words, the more investment, more space, more potential income.
So if you reverse engineer it, how small could you go and possibly see almost the same bottom line with less investment and risk.

I have seen other business that produced good incomes even though small, while similar business expanded and went broke from the weight of all the additional overhead.

If you are going to be a small pool room you have to have it comfortable for people to sit and wait should all the tables be in use. You don't want them to stick their heads in the door, see you are busy and leave.

You need a pool of players waiting to put right on a table as soon as one opens up. You don't want them leaving or before you know it you have like one table going and an empty room.

It happens quick to, you can go from full to empty in no time if you let the new waiting players leave. You have to have a way to keep them there and entertained and you can be full all night.

 

[Albatross Cues]

Aloha

I think you gentalmen my be on to something here. Been wanting to open my own room over here, but the county will not allow more then 5 tables and still allow the owner to sell Alchohol. My vision is to have a room with with 12-14 nine foot tables, 6 bar boxes and 2 12' snooker tables. This should be enough to cover the gambit of players in cue sports. All that being said there is still not enough tables to pay for the space needed to accommodate for the rent. The sale of Alchohol would be the best option for keeping the doors open, but it is not an option. Even as a private club, I don't think it would be allowed.

The only way I see this as a viable option is to own a building that would support other businesses. Let's say a fourplex for lack of a better term. If the rent from the other three units were set right, it could cover the major expense for the pool hall, which would be the rent. The table time should then be enough to cover the working expenses for the room. This adds some complexity to the pool hall business, as now you are relying on three other successful businesses to keep the doors open to your pool hall.

Anyway, thanks for the comments, now the hamster is turning again on this project. I would love to find a way to make this work.

Aloha

 

[336Robin]

Reverse Enginner it.

So if you reverse engineer it, how small could you go and possibly see almost the same bottom line with less investment and risk.

In order to Reverse Engineer it I would think you will need to start with your Manpower and determine your hours of operation and your needs for employees and figure out how much all that would cost you. Then you figure out how many tables you need to produce those results plus some for the business and the owner. I cant think of anyone better qualified to round out those figures than you.

I see a place that the owner opens up during the week during the day maybe then someone else comes in at night. This way the owner has a idea of what is going on but isnt saddled with more responsibility than he needs.

I also see it as retirement haven for old guys to hang out and getting someone to run it shouldnt be a problem.

 

[336Robin]

Rental Property

Aloha

I think you gentalmen my be on to something here. Been wanting to open my own room over here, but the county will not allow more then 5 tables and still allow the owner to sell Alchohol. My vision is to have a room with with 12-14 nine foot tables, 6 bar boxes and 2 12' snooker tables. This should be enough to cover the gambit of players in cue sports. All that being said there is still not enough tables to pay for the space needed to accommodate for the rent. The sale of Alchohol would be the best option for keeping the doors open, but it is not an option. Even as a private club, I don't think it would be allowed.

The only way I see this as a viable option is to own a building that would support other businesses. Let's say a fourplex for lack of a better term. If the rent from the other three units were set right, it could cover the major expense for the pool hall, which would be the rent. The table time should then be enough to cover the working expenses for the room. This adds some complexity to the pool hall business, as now you are relying on three other successful businesses to keep the doors open to your pool hall.

Anyway, thanks for the comments, now the hamster is turning again on this project. I would love to find a way to make this work.

Aloha

We have a local room about 17 miles from me that bought a building and has apartments upstairs. That seems to be working very well.

 

[Albatross Cues]

We have a local room about 17 miles from me that bought a building and has apartments upstairs. That seems to be working very well.

Aloha

That could work, although, I would not want to be a slumlord, apartments could get tricky with renters and maintainance sometimes...

But it seems like it might be a viable buiseness model if one wanted to keep a pool room open. I would think with buiseness space for lease, it may bring more people to the location, better advertising for the Hall. With the right businesses and location it might just work.

For some reason I get this vision of a brothel, when I picture a pool hall with apartments upstairs. Just looses some of the class of the place. I know it's just my warped mind though.

Aloha

 

[JasBy]

I think we need to look at this from the perspective of your potential 'bar' pool player. Not necessarily a league player, perhaps they play a couple times a month when they are out with friends. At a pool hall, the tables are more difficult (a subject for many other arguments), the atmosphere will be more subdued, and most importantly - the cost involved.
Here in the twin cities we have a great pool community and have some great pool rooms. The biggest charges in the neighborhood of $20.00 an hour for a table of you have 4 people. So these potential customers can come to the pool hall and pay $20 for an hour and maybe get 6 or 7 games in, depending on skill level and socializing. Or they can go to the local bar and pay $1 to $1.50 a game, maybe even not paying for some games if other couples are playing in.
You have to make it welcoming, and more importantly, have it make sense for people to want to come play on your tables. I've always thought you should just figure out how much you need to get for the table for an hour and charge it - no matter how many people are playing - I am betting less pool gets played per hour by 4 people than by 1 or 2 people just due to social interaction. Then you encourage groups to come in, and make more money per table on the other services you provide like food and soda.

 

[336Robin]

Renting

Aloha

That could work, although, I would not want to be a slumlord, apartments could get tricky with renters and maintainance sometimes...

But it seems like it might be a viable buiseness model if one wanted to keep a pool room open. I would think with buiseness space for lease, it may bring more people to the location, better advertising for the Hall. With the right businesses and location it might just work.

For some reason I get this vision of a brothel, when I picture a pool hall with apartments upstairs. Just looses some of the class of the place. I know it's just my warped mind though.

Aloha

Exactly,
The apartments are nice and all utilities are included so no problems for the renters. These are upstairs but definitely not substandard which keeps a decent clientele.

 

[qfans]

Rooms are Xpensive!

i have two rooms within 15 miles of my house one is an older room w leagues galore that has probably been mortgage free for years if they own the building. The other is newer and was a pool players dream recognized, six gold crowns on one side and almost 30 valleys. The man passed and it went back to the bank. A friend owns it now and has had to make changes to make it work. The gold crowns are gone and it's down to about 20 valleys. Big 80" TV's and projectors make it a great place to watch a game but beyond the two weekly tourneys I run there, weekends you can't find a serious player. Which isn't a bad thing, it's just an adjustment that had to be made. I see Smokin Aces and places near that size as the best bet to make a modern day room work, there's a few bars that have 8-9 tables in them here and they are way to close together to really be enjoyed. A Big room would need at least 4-5 major tourneys a year in my opinion. Been to the one macggoo has pictured good sized but no one runs it, no weeklys or any schedule to it. I don't see how a big room is economically sound today without leagues 6 days a week and tourneys on the side!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Here are some actual figures from a successful local room - a relatively upscale place with pool and bar/café in separate adjoining rooms (full food and drink service in the pool room). It has 13 9-foot Brunswicks in about 3,000 SF of space - rent is about $1/SF/month for a non-downtown "B" retail location. Open for business average 12 hours per day. 2-4 league nights per week.

pj
chgo

View attachment 41450

 

[336Robin]

Not a lot of profit

Here are some actual figures from a successful local room - a relatively upscale place with pool and bar/café in separate adjoining rooms (full food and drink service in the pool room). It has 13 9-foot Brunswicks in about 3,000 SF of space - rent is about $1/SF/month for a non-downtown "B" retail location. Open for business average 12 hours per day. 2-4 league nights per week.

pj
chgo

View attachment 41450

I bet its a nice place but thats not a lot of profit for the responsibility.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I bet its a nice place but thats not a lot of profit for the responsibility.

That's only pool revenue, not counting drinks and food (in the pool room and the bar/café). It does OK for a small business.

In fact, the pool business really does better than these numbers suggest, because some of the overhead is for preparing and serving the food and drinks.

pj
chgo