Squirt and Throw

9BallWill

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just how much is applied? in this shot here:

crawdaddio said:
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There seems to be quite a bit of english transferred to the 8 ball, but I have never been able to get any real noticeable spin on an object ball. In addition to this, when you apply right english to the cue, the object will be "thrown" to the left, correct? Just how much does this come into play? Reason I ask is because it just doesn't seem that the split second of contact the balls have would be able to do so much "damage".
 
I don't know exactly how much english is applied to the object ball, but I know it's enough to make you miss. Over the length of the table I would say it's a substantial amount. The split second you're talking about is more than enough time to transfer spin/energy. Dirty balls or balls with the finish worn off will "throw" even more.
 
9BallWill said:
... There seems to be quite a bit of english transferred to the 8 ball, but I have never been able to get any real noticeable spin on an object ball. ... .
But if you ever made the diagrammed shot, you did get spin on the object ball, so I'm not sure I understand your question. With pretty dirty balls, you can get the object ball to throw about 6 degrees off-line. The more throw you get, the more the object ball must be spinning -- you can't have throw without transferred side spin.

The above has nothing to do with squirt, which is a stick-ball interaction and not a ball-ball interaction.
 
9BallWill said:
Just how much is applied? in this shot here:
There seems to be quite a bit of english transferred to the 8 ball, but I have never been able to get any real noticeable spin on an object ball. In addition to this, when you apply right english to the cue, the object will be "thrown" to the left, correct? Just how much does this come into play? Reason I ask is because it just doesn't seem that the split second of contact the balls have would be able to do so much "damage".
The shot diagrammed will be makable on some tables without any spin applied to the CB. The spin will help the OB come back off the 2nd rail though.

You can get the same effect playing the CB accross the OB too, with no spin required.

This comes into play heaps if you're playing banks. Just a touch of side this way or that can make you miss by several inches.

For basic potting, it is common to throw the OB by 2 to 3 degrees by using side english. A very useful shot to know is when you cannot legally hit enough of your OB to pocket it naturally. But you can line it up 2 inches from the pocket with lots of english and slowish speed and turn it into the pocket.
 
9BallWill said:
Just how much is applied? in this shot here:



There seems to be quite a bit of english transferred to the 8 ball, but I have never been able to get any real noticeable spin on an object ball. In addition to this, when you apply right english to the cue, the object will be "thrown" to the left, correct? Just how much does this come into play? Reason I ask is because it just doesn't seem that the split second of contact the balls have would be able to do so much "damage".

Most the english you see here is picked up from the first rail. Each time you hit a rail the object ball will come off with opposite english. Notice the harder (not english applied) the OB is hit the deeper it goes into the rail and you will get even more reverse on the 2nd rail. Depending on the angle of attack, the cue ball will cause the OB to effect only little english by contact (not english on the CB). The sharper the object ball is hit into the rail, the greater the effect from rail english because it is not fighting the angle.

(I posted it it this way after seeing the shot you posted, assuming you thought OB spin was causing this effect.)
 
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pete lafond said:
Most the english you see here is picked up from the first rail. Each time you hit a rail the object ball will come off with opposite english. Notice the harder (not english applied) the OB is hit the deeper it goes into the rail and you will get even more reverse on the 2nd rail. Depending on the angle of attack, the cue ball will cause the OB to effect only little english by contact (not english on the CB). The sharper the object ball is hit into the rail, the greater the effect from rail english because it is not fighting the angle.

(I posted it it this way after seeing the shot you posted, assuming you thought OB spin was causing this effect.)
Yea, that makes sense cause sometimes either I, or a friend of mine, will just rocket the object ball into the rail only to have it bounce off at an angle way sharper than it should. It just seems to me that the shot I posted would only be possible with a decent amount of english on the OB. I see what you mean, but the angle that 8 ball comes back is pretty severe for being the OB.

For basic potting, it is common to throw the OB by 2 to 3 degrees by using side english. A very useful shot to know is when you cannot legally hit enough of your OB to pocket it naturally. But you can line it up 2 inches from the pocket with lots of english and slowish speed and turn it into the pocket.

And thats where the other half of the topic title came in... I didn't ask about it at first, but wouldnt there be a substantial amount of squirt hitting the cue ball with enough english to throw the ball in? I'm sure knowing this comes down to cue types and your playing style, but it's another "worry" of mine.
 
9BallWill said:
Just how much is applied? in this shot here:



There seems to be quite a bit of english transferred to the 8 ball, but I have never been able to get any real noticeable spin on an object ball. In addition to this, when you apply right english to the cue, the object will be "thrown" to the left, correct? Just how much does this come into play? Reason I ask is because it just doesn't seem that the split second of contact the balls have would be able to do so much "damage".


I think the shot you posted has more to do with a firmly hit first rail that adds the spin which is then reversed when it hits the second rail and the ball goes in....I have seen this shot made many times....99% of them were by accident...I have seen it shot on purpose in a "freewheel" game when a ball was blocking the one rail bank...He called the shot first so I know he intended to play it that way..

Here is a similar shot (1-pocket) usually done on purpose that uses the spin generated from a "overcut" to the end rail that then grabs the rail and returns to your pocket....Inside english "might" be applied to assist the spin on the OB, but I belive the shot is more about proper speed for the grab on the end rail to take correctly....

I am sure if I am explaining this incorrectly...someone..(Wayne) will jump down my throat first and then explain the correct way to play this shot, or how stupid the shot is..... :D

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You can make the 8 ball do this too with extreme left hand english.
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Bob Jewett said:
With pretty dirty balls.....

okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy...

Butthead.jpg
 
BRKNRUN said:
Here is a similar shot (1-pocket) usually done on purpose that uses the spin generated from a "overcut" to the end rail that then grabs the rail and returns to your pocket....Inside english "might" be applied to assist the spin on the OB, but I belive the shot is more about proper speed for the grab on the end rail to take correctly....

I am sure if I am explaining this incorrectly...someone..(Wayne) will jump down my throat first and then explain the correct way to play this shot, or how stupid the shot is..... :D

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Center ball, no spin.

Rod
 
BRKNRUN said:
I think the shot you posted has more to do with a firmly hit first rail that adds the spin which is then reversed when it hits the second rail and the ball goes in....I have seen this shot made many times....99% of them were by accident...I have seen it shot on purpose in a "freewheel" game when a ball was blocking the one rail bank...He called the shot first so I know he intended to play it that way..

Here is a similar shot (1-pocket) usually done on purpose that uses the spin generated from a "overcut" to the end rail that then grabs the rail and returns to your pocket....Inside english "might" be applied to assist the spin on the OB, but I belive the shot is more about proper speed for the grab on the end rail to take correctly....

I am sure if I am explaining this incorrectly...someone..(Wayne) will jump down my throat first and then explain the correct way to play this shot, or how stupid the shot is..... :D

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You expalined it much better than I did. I think you agree that english on the cue ball will barely put any on the object ball, if at all. It is all about hitting it firm on this shot and picking up the reverse english from digging into the rail. Any added english would come from cue ball induced contact if not hit directly.
 
So it would take both english on the OB as well as some speed to cause that to happen. Makes sense.

And you are a stray bullet... haha
 
9BallWill said:
So it would take both english on the OB as well as some speed to cause that to happen. Makes sense.

And you are a stray bullet... haha

No need for any english on the OB before hitting the rail. The rail is all that is needed.
 
pete lafond said:
No need for any english on the OB before hitting the rail. The rail is all that is needed.

Pete is correct. It's the torque when coming off the rail that makes this a (common) 2-rail bank shot. Unless your CB is straight on the OB, no english is needed. The CB hitting the OB at any angle into the rail produces sufficient spin to make the shot, even hittng the CB at 12:00.

The original poster, however, remains unclear with english, spin, deflection, throw and squirt. These are all very different animals and should not be confused.
 
Rude Dog said:
You can make the 8 ball do this too with extreme left hand english.
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%[Z6[7%\X2C4%]r2K6%^Y9N9%eA3a4
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I have played that same shot with a touch of OE (running) right english.

I used to set them up like that, or OB slightly closer to the center and play first with left side to make the shot off 2 rails and then play with a touch or right, hitting the 1st rail in the exact same spot and it would make the opposite center pocket off 3 rails.

It's a good way to check how the rails perform on a table.
 
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