Squirt. End Mass and Cue Flexibility.
- Thread starter LAMas
- Start date
A friend plays with an old TAD and to demonstrate the kiln dried, 30 old (then) years shaft lack of moisture, he dropped the tip end onto a smooth concrete floor - tip made a high ping as it bounced.
I wonder how that (dried) affects squirt compared to a brand new TAD shaft or any LD shaft etc..
Also, I wonder what an Elk Master sounds like vs a Le Pro or....? What difference does that make - negligible?
Any studies?
Be well
Hi E,
If a soft tip transfers less energy or force, does it only reduce force for just one (the forward force vector) of the force vectors for an off center hit...
or does it reduce both force vectors?
You Stay Well.
What exactly is the moisture content of "kiln-dried" wood, and why do you believe your climate won't let it stay at that MC?
Hi,
Does the softer tip compression take more time than a hard one and during that initial compression, does it have more time to nudge the CB to the side or to spin a tiny distance changing the effective contact point angle on the CB where the force vectors take effect? Does a whippier shaft have a similar influence?
Or, it doesn't make a difference and can be dismissed in hand save to those that are given to minutia like my young grand kids?
Be well
Hi,
Does the softer tip compression take more time than a hard one and during that initial compression, does it have more time to nudge the CB to the side or to spin a tiny distance changing the effective contact point angle on the CB where the force vectors take effect? Does a whippier shaft have a similar influence?
Or, it doesn't make a difference and can be dismissed in hand save to those that are given to minutia like my young grand kids?
Be well
When I was just a 'kid' in my teens & playing rather well using english on nearly every shot, I never once gave CB squirt a single conscious thought.
I was thinking about spin though.:wink:
Stay Well.
Addendum: Does the extra time allowed by a softer tip allow the shaft to flex more before the ball is launched off of the tip? Does a softer tip just change the timing of when all of the forces involved are exerted onto the CB? I'm no longer a 'kid' in my teens. :wink:
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Wood will always settle in at EMC (equilibrium moisture content). It's a function of humidity and temperature. It's a big problem for instrument builders like me. It's not easy to "seal" wood to keep it from achieving EMC. Best you can normally do is carefully select your wood and construction techniques to allow for it.
I'm not a cue builder, but this is true of anything made with wood. For instruments, when I get a piece of wood down to around 6% (which is actually lower than how it typically comes out of a kiln), I'm happy that with good selection you can bring that instrument anywhere save for a rain forest, and it will probably not need much more than small tweaks. Of course to get it there, the entire shop needs to be climate controlled year round, including humidity. That's a royal PITA, even in a small shop, but if it's important for what you're building then you have to do it. Again, I don't know much about building cues so I don't know if it's important or not. Just talking about wood here.
He died a couple of years ago. I think that he used to seal his shafts with a hydrophobic coating.
Be well
Who did back then?
Here's a shot my wife took a few weeks ago. I'm putting about two tips of left on the ball, but to me it looked like I was aiming right at the point of the opposite diamond. We both paid careful attention to where the CB struck the rail, and we both agreed that the diamond split the center of the CB at rail contact. The ball ended up in the corner pocket to my left.
Clearly, I was not aligned to the center of the diamond, and was more like a chalk's width away from where I thought I was aiming. There was no deliberate adjustment on my part. It just looks and feels "right" to me to align that way. I can switch back and forth from left to right spin, aim to what looks like the center of the diamond and hit it dead center with any amount of spin on the ball.
This is why I used to doubt the existence of CB deflection, but this photo shows I was all wrong about it for decades. It also shows why I have zero interest in LD cues. Who needs gimmicks when the wetware will sort it all out for us without having to think about it?
Attachments
What is important to you is what you observe and conclude.
Obama never lies.:smile:
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/39. squirt.pdf
Be well
Even though I adjusted well in the first session with an OB Classic shaft, it took me about 4 good sessions to get completely comfortable with it for ALL shots.
I'd rather have my subconscious make smaller adjustments rather than the large ones required by the heavier front ends.
I think my subconscious thanks me for doing that for 'him'.
Wood will always settle in at EMC (equilibrium moisture content). It's a function of humidity and temperature. It's a big problem for instrument builders like me. It's not easy to "seal" wood to keep it from achieving EMC. Best you can normally do is carefully select your wood and construction techniques to allow for it.
I'm not a cue builder, but this is true of anything made with wood. For instruments, when I get a piece of wood down to around 6% (which is actually lower than how it typically comes out of a kiln), I'm happy that with good selection you can bring that instrument anywhere save for a rain forest, and it will probably not need much more than small tweaks. Of course to get it there, the entire shop needs to be climate controlled year round, including humidity. That's a royal PITA, even in a small shop, but if it's important for what you're building then you have to do it. Again, I don't know much about building cues so I don't know if it's important or not. Just talking about wood here.
Ya, it was actually a trick question.
I've been a professional luthier for 40 years now, and understand everything you are saying. Been in a few arguments with cue makers on the forum here, but got nowhere. I decided to not bother anymore.
Here's a link to a U.S Forest Service publication that gives outdoor EMC for cities all over the world. Interestingly, the summer EMC in Key West, Fl. is just about the same as it is up here in Binghamton, NY. Go figure.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn268.pdf
Now, all bets are off indoors. Up here, it's a very windy -3.8ºF outside right now at 3:22 PM, and the temps are expected to plummet to -17ºF by morning. The outdoor relative humidity right now is about 48%, and will likely drop to about 35% or lower by morning. But once that moisture-depleted air infiltrates into the house and warms up to 72º, the RH inside will be down around 15%, which would bring the wood down to less than 4% MC (no matter how you attempted to seal the wood) if the conditions stayed the same for long enough. It's weather like this that lines my pockets with money from folks who didn't listen to me about using a Dampit instrument humidifier year round, because unprotected, their instruments have a high risk of developing nasty cracks in no time flat.
BTW the average yearly indoor EMC in most parts of the nation is somewhere between 8% and 10%, so even kiln-dried lumber (usually around 12-14% MC) still needs to be brought indoors for a long time before it reaches equilibrium with the inside conditions. And as an instrument maker, I'm sure you are well aware that no amount of aging of the wood will change a damn thing about this phenomenon. Even 30 year-old wood (or 300 year-old wood, as is the case in many violins I have worked on) will vary in MC depending upon the changes in the RH of the environment in which it is kept.
Ya, it was actually a trick question.
I've been a professional luthier for 40 years now, and understand everything you are saying. Been in a few arguments with cue makers on the forum here, but got nowhere. I decided to not bother anymore.
Here's a link to a U.S Forest Service publication that gives outdoor EMC for cities all over the world. Interestingly, the summer EMC in Key West, Fl. is just about the same as it is up here in Binghamton, NY. Go figure.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn268.pdf
Now, all bets are off indoors. Up here, it's a very windy -3.8ºF outside right now at 3:22 PM, and the temps are expected to plummet to -17ºF by morning. The outdoor relative humidity right now is about 48%, and will likely drop to about 35% or lower by morning. But once that moisture-depleted air infiltrates into the house and warms up to 72º, the RH inside will be down around 15%, which would bring the wood down to less than 4% MC (no matter how you attempted to seal the wood) if the conditions stayed the same for long enough. It's weather like this that lines my pockets with money from folks who didn't listen to me about using a Dampit instrument humidifier year round, because unprotected, their instruments have a high risk of developing nasty cracks in no time flat.
BTW the average yearly indoor EMC in most parts of the nation is somewhere between 8% and 10%, so even kiln-dried lumber (usually around 12-14% MC) still needs to be brought indoors for a long time before it reaches equilibrium with the inside conditions. And as an instrument maker, I'm sure you are well aware that no amount of aging of the wood will change a damn thing about this phenomenon. Even 30 year-old wood (or 300 year-old wood, as is the case in many violins I have worked on) will vary in MC depending upon the changes in the RH of the environment in which it is kept.
In the winter time, it's not unusual for my 68 to 70 degree Connecticut shop to plummet to single digit RH numbers without the humidifier running. The only thing I know of which MIGHT make a difference, and I stress the might, is the baking process that some guys do (I forget what it's called), and possibly what Taylor does. They take the wood down in their own kilns to practically 0, and then let it acclimate again. I guess the claim is that it hardens something, maybe get the lignum to crystallize, or some nonsense. I have no idea what, but they claim it does something. For me, it's intelligent wood selection and work with what the wood wants to do, not against it.
Nice to meet you, Mr. Pockets.
Not great for humans either. Get some air sealing done in your house, my friend. And then get an ERV (Energy Retaining Ventilator).
55% RH inside here at the moment.
Thank you kindly.
p.s. thanks for the EMC table.
Ya, it was actually a trick question.
I've been a professional luthier for 40 years now, and understand everything you are saying. Been in a few arguments with cue makers on the forum here, but got nowhere. I decided to not bother anymore.
Here's a link to a U.S Forest Service publication that gives outdoor EMC for cities all over the world. Interestingly, the summer EMC in Key West, Fl. is just about the same as it is up here in Binghamton, NY. Go figure.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn268.pdf
Now, all bets are off indoors. Up here, it's a very windy -3.8ºF outside right now at 3:22 PM, and the temps are expected to plummet to -17ºF by morning. The outdoor relative humidity right now is about 48%, and will likely drop to about 35% or lower by morning. But once that moisture-depleted air infiltrates into the house and warms up to 72º, the RH inside will be down around 15%, which would bring the wood down to less than 4% MC (no matter how you attempted to seal the wood) if the conditions stayed the same for long enough. It's weather like this that lines my pockets with money from folks who didn't listen to me about using a Dampit instrument humidifier year round, because unprotected, their instruments have a high risk of developing nasty cracks in no time flat.
BTW the average yearly indoor EMC in most parts of the nation is somewhere between 8% and 10%, so even kiln-dried lumber (usually around 12-14% MC) still needs to be brought indoors for a long time before it reaches equilibrium with the inside conditions. And as an instrument maker, I'm sure you are well aware that no amount of aging of the wood will change a damn thing about this phenomenon. Even 30 year-old wood (or 300 year-old wood, as is the case in many violins I have worked on) will vary in MC depending upon the changes in the RH of the environment in which it is kept.
Thanks for the education.
I am thinking about creating a line of temperature and humidity controlled hermetic
cue cases....not
Be well
Thanks for the education.
I am thinking about creating a line of temperature and humidity controlled hermetic
cue cases....not
Be well
I think Barton has already considered that but did not pursue it.
Stay Well.
That's why we all generally target about 6%. Leaves a little room on the low side to go a little lower without too much danger of developing cracks, popping off bridges and other annoying maladies. Going to a higher RH environment usually doesn't hurt things too much other than maybe the setup. 6% has been the conventional wisdom for a long time. On some more delicately built instruments (flamenco guitars come to mind) a luthier may adjust the RH in his shop to more closely match where the thing will live most of the time.
Density
(lb/ft3)
Maple, sugar
Fresh Green Wood
56
Air-dried Seasoned Wood
(20% moisture content per weight)
44
~25% Difference
To bend wood, you soak it in water so it will be heavier and more flexible. Will it affect squirt a little or a lot?
Now where did I put my cheap sneeky pete shaft?
Be well
(lb/ft3)
Maple, sugar
Fresh Green Wood
56
Air-dried Seasoned Wood
(20% moisture content per weight)
44
~25% Difference
To bend wood, you soak it in water so it will be heavier and more flexible. Will it affect squirt a little or a lot?
Now where did I put my cheap sneeky pete shaft?
Be well
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H-mmm... have to read up about that one. It's pretty hard to get wood to near 0% MC without raising the temp above 215º, and then you are risking damaging the wood IMHO. I know that fly rod makers heat treat their Tonkin cane when they make bamboo rods, but resonance and tone are not deciding criteria for their cane selection.
The only drying effect that I know of that has to do with EMC in wood is the hysteresis effect, whereby wood that is taken well below the normal EMC percentage will never again equilibrate as high in moisture in the same RH conditions. Why this is so is still up for debate. Maybe we can discuss it here on AZB? No, please, let's not go there.
Most wood drying charts show three curves that delineate the extremes of hysteresis, but however you slice it (sorry, couldn't resist) the wood will still move with changes in RH, it will just reach equilibrium at a slightly lower MC.
I agree with you, best to select the wood carefully and let it do what it is going to. So much depends (in instruments, and I'm sure with cues as well) on using wood that is free from internal stress. If it bends as it comes off the resaw, best to leave it to a furniture maker. Lol
BTW what kinds of instruments have you made? I did a brief Google search and came up with a John Collocia in CT who makes effects (pretty cool), but I didn't see any guitars listed. Are you that JC? I'm always interested in the work of my fellow luthiers. Pics, maybe?