squirt, swerve, and throw effects summary

dr_dave

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As many of you probably know, I have done lots of analysis and experiments over the years concerning squirt, swerve, and throw. Many illustrations, explanations, and examples can be found in my 2006 through 2008 BD articles available online.

Below is a quick summary of some of the useful pieces of information presented in the articles. Hopefully, some might find this list useful to validate many things you know already and/or to check if there are some effects you don't know about.

If you think I've missed any important effects, please let me know. Also let me know if you think any of the items are misleading or counter to your knowledge and/or intuition.

FYI, here's a short glossary of some of the terms used.
CB: cue ball
CIT: cut-induced throw
gearing OE: the amount of outside English that results in no throw
IE: inside English
OB: object ball
OE: outside English
SIT: spin-induced throw
squerve: combination of squirt and swerve
See my online glossary and articles for more details.

Squirt, Swerve, and Throw Effects:
(everything you ever wanted to know about squirt, swerve, and throw)
  1. Squirt increases with the amount of English.
  2. Squirt does not depend on shot speed.
  3. Squirt increases with the amount of shaft end-mass (e.g., a low-squirt cue has less end-mass and results in less squirt).
  4. Squirt is less with a heavier CB.
  5. Squerve can be zero with certain speeds and cue elevations for a given shot distance, amount of English, and cue.
  6. Squirt or squerve can be canceled using back-hand English (BHE) and/or front-hand English (FHE) aim-and-pivot methods (see my November '07 article).
  7. Swerve increases with cue elevation.
  8. Swerve occurs with practically all English shots because the cue must be elevated to clear the rails.
  9. Swerve is delayed with faster shot speed.
  10. Swerve occurs only while the CB is sliding; once rolling begins, the CB heads in a straight line.
  11. Swerve occurs earlier with sticky cloth and later on slick cloth.
  12. Swerve occurs earlier with a follow shot than with a draw shot.
  13. Swerve angle is larger with a draw shot than with a follow shot.
  14. Swerve angle can be predicted and visualized using the Coriolis masse-shot aiming method presented in my November '05 article.
  15. For small cut angle shots (i.e., fuller hits), the amount of CIT does not vary with shot speed, but increases with cut angle.
  16. For larger cut angle shots (i.e., thinner hits), the amount of CIT is significantly larger for slower speed shots as compared to faster speed shots.
  17. The amount of CIT decreases some with larger cut angles, but not by much (especially for slower speed shots).
  18. Maximum CIT occurs at close to a half-ball hit (30? cut angle).
  19. In general, throw is larger at slower speeds, and for stun shots.
  20. Both follow and draw reduce throw, and they do so by the same amount (see my October '06 article).
  21. The largest discrepancy between throw values for stun and follow/draw shots occurs close to a half-ball hit (30? cut angle).
  22. The difference between the throw of stun and follow/draw shots is not as great at larger cut angles.
  23. More English gives you more SIT only up to a point. Additional English beyond that point actually reduces the amount of SIT (i.e., more English doesn?t always give you more throw).
  24. SIT is largest for a slow stun shot with about 50% of maximum English.
  25. The amount of throw can increase significantly as a small amount of English is added, especially for a stun shot.
  26. SIT is independent of speed (i.e., the throw is the same at all speeds) for small amounts of English.
  27. "Gearing" OE results in absolutely no throw. The amount of English required for ?gearing? increases with cut angle. At a half-ball hit, the amount of English required is about 50%.
  28. At very small cut angles, IE and OE create similar amounts of throw (although, in opposite directions).
  29. For large cut angles, a small amount of OE can result in more throw than shots with no English.
  30. For large cut angles, IE results in less throw than shots with no English.
  31. IE increases throw at small cut angles, but actually reduces the amount of throw at larger cut angles.
  32. OE can cause throw in either direction depending on the amount of English and the cut angle.
  33. Even for large cut angle shots (thin hits), excess OE (more than the ?gearing? amount) can be applied to throw the OB in the SIT direction.
  34. The amount of throw with IE can be much more consistent than with OE if the amount of English varies a little. In other words, the amount of throw varies more with tip placement for OE vs. IE. This might explain why some people prefer using IE on cut shots ... because they can better anticipate and adjust for the amount of throw.
I look forward to your comments, suggestions, and/or questions.

Regards,
Dave
 
Dave,
MANY thanks for your reports. You are like the "Mythbusters" on television. I enjoy your column, and have attempted to memorize your book. Great work.

My only question is on issue #2 above.

Using several tips of inside English with an OB-1 shaft (1 inch longer than standard); I find that I must allow for 2 to 3 inches of squirt on power shots. For a slow rolling, gently struck shot, I only allow for 1 inch. I have tried this over and over; the results never vary. Why the discrepancy? On the slow rolling shot I am still getting tons of English. Please help me understand. It appears to me that the harder I hit the ball, the more it squirts. When I adjust accordingly, the results are excellent.
 
Dave~

Many thanks for your time and insight, great information
 
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Williebetmore said:
Dave,
MANY thanks for your reports. You are like the "Mythbusters" on television. I enjoy your column, and have attempted to memorize your book. Great work.
Thank you. I appreciate all of the nice messages many users have posted.

Williebetmore said:
My only question is on issue #2 above.

Using several tips of inside English with an OB-1 shaft (1 inch longer than standard); I find that I must allow for 2 to 3 inches of squirt on power shots. For a slow rolling, gently struck shot, I only allow for 1 inch. I have tried this over and over; the results never vary. Why the discrepancy? On the slow rolling shot I am still getting tons of English. Please help me understand. It appears to me that the harder I hit the ball, the more it squirts. When I adjust accordingly, the results are excellent.
What you are observing is the combined effects of squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve"). My March '08 article covers this in detail, with several good illustrations and examples. Check it out.

Regards,
Dave
 
o2bacs said:
Many thanks for your time and insight. I recently moved from Denver and was wondering if by chance your initials are DG?
My initials are DGA (David Gaston Alciatore). Why do you ask?

Regards,
DGA
 
dr_dave said:
What you are observing is the combined effects of squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve"). My March '08 article covers this in detail, with several good illustrations and examples. Check it out.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,
Thanks for the link. I will say that this effect I am seeing is with the balls fairly close together (I was thinking that the swerve would not be an important part of the equation).

As I am pocketing the balls consistently, I don't want to change my method; but it definitely bugs me if the physics of my assumptions is in error.:(

Did you test the hypothesis with an OB-1 shaft? I'm thinking there may be a difference.
 
The item that perplexes me the most is #20 "Both follow and draw reduce throw, and they do so by the same amount."

Didn't think a follow-shot would reduce throw... rather the opposite.

Also #23 "More English gives you more SIT only up to a point. Additional English beyond that point actually reduces the amount of SIT."

To me it sounds a bit strange that you can actually reduce throw by applying English.

-- peer
 
Williebetmore said:
Dave,
MANY thanks for your reports. You are like the "Mythbusters" on television. I enjoy your column, and have attempted to memorize your book. Great work.

My only question is on issue #2 above.

Using several tips of inside English with an OB-1 shaft (1 inch longer than standard); I find that I must allow for 2 to 3 inches of squirt on power shots. For a slow rolling, gently struck shot, I only allow for 1 inch. I have tried this over and over; the results never vary. Why the discrepancy? On the slow rolling shot I am still getting tons of English. Please help me understand. It appears to me that the harder I hit the ball, the more it squirts. When I adjust accordingly, the results are excellent.

A few questions.

1. How do you measure tip offset such that you can use "several tips" of english? Offsetting by a full tip radius permits only about 2 tips maximum.

2. What difference does inside english have on the magnitude of squirt?

3. Not a question but a comment. I thought the OB-1 was supposed to be a low deflection shaft. I am amazed that you get as much as 2-3 inches of squirt on power shots. With my Predator shaft, with the cb at the center of the 1st diamond line and and OB frozen on the center of the head rail, using as level a stroke as possible....maximim tip offset and break power, I get maybe an inch of squirt and VERY little offsetting swerve given the factors cited above.

Regards,
Jim
 
Peer said:
The item that perplexes me the most is #20 "Both follow and draw reduce throw, and they do so by the same amount."

Didn't think a follow-shot would reduce throw... rather the opposite.

Also #23 "More English gives you more SIT only up to a point. Additional English beyond that point actually reduces the amount of SIT."

To me it sounds a bit strange that you can actually reduce throw by applying English.

-- peer

These issues are related. The thing you have to get out of your head is thinking of throw as a "gear effect." That analogy has done a lot of damage, imo.

Both of the above can be understood by think of throw a little differently. The force is due to a RUBBING, not to a GRABBING. So think of this force like you're standing with slick shoes on a sheet of ice. You have a broom in your hand that you can swipe across the ice and move yourself a couple inches.

A really fast swipe doesn't necessarily get you further. In fact you might not even go as far as with a medium-speed swipe.

And here's why topspin (and bottom spin) reduce throw. A SWIPE only applies so much force. With sidespin only, the swipe is directed sideways (giving throw). With sidespin and topspin, the swipe is directed part sideways and part down. So the sideways component of the swipe is less.
 
av84fun said:
A few questions.

1. How do you measure tip offset such that you can use "several tips" of english? Offsetting by a full tip radius permits only about 2 tips maximum.

2. What difference does inside english have on the magnitude of squirt?

3. Not a question but a comment. I thought the OB-1 was supposed to be a low deflection shaft. I am amazed that you get as much as 2-3 inches of squirt on power shots. With my Predator shaft, with the cb at the center of the 1st diamond line and and OB frozen on the center of the head rail, using as level a stroke as possible....maximim tip offset and break power, I get maybe an inch of squirt and VERY little offsetting swerve given the factors cited above.

Regards,
Jim

Jim,
I use Grady's "click" method - so each click/tip adjustment is to the edge of the tip (each click is about a half/tip width; 4 is about the maximum without miscuing). I call these adjustment "tips", but probably incorrectly so...they are really half-tip width adjustments. Sorry for the confusion.

I didn't find any difference between my Predator and my OB-1 as far as allowing for deflection. I never tested it as you do; but if I power it (minimizing swerve), I would guess that both the Predator and OB-1 squirt more than an inch; more like 2 inches. Maybe the shaft length is an issue (mine are all 1 inch longer than standard), or maybe you are hitting it like a little girl and getting some swerve :) :) (since Dave says it doesn't squirt more with a harder hit).

What I've been thinking the past hour, is that maybe I'm judging this on close shots where the squirt is not completed before the cue ball gets to the object ball.
 
Dave, that's an excellent list of squirt/swerve/throw principles.

I have a comment about one of them, which is correct but maybe incomplete. It would be more clear, at least to me, with the following additional language (or something like it):

6. Squirt or squerve can be canceled using back-hand English (BHE) and/or front-hand English (FHE) aim-and-pivot methods or any other method that results in equivalent compensated aim.

pj
chgo
 
dr_dave said:
...
Squirt or squerve can be canceled using back-hand English (BHE) and/or front-hand English (FHE) aim-and-pivot methods (see my November '07 article).
....
Regards,
Dave
I didn't read your whole post because I don't like to read and have trouble comprehending long posts, articles, etc. online, but I did attempt to read the link for this point.

After reading that article, it seems this point can be summed up by saying as long as your bridge is at the pivot point you'll cancel swerve. As I see it there is no other type of english, you either move your back hand (pivot), or move your bridge hand.
 
Oops!

I thought this was a thread about pleasuring oneself while driving a convertible.
I was gonna share an experience I had in my TR 3 convertible. Sorry, wrong thread.
Purdman :rolleyes:
 
swerve doesn't care about the cue

Williebetmore said:
Thanks for the link. I will say that this effect I am seeing is with the balls fairly close together (I was thinking that the swerve would not be an important part of the equation).
Swerve happens only while the CB is skidding. Once roll develops, the CB heads in a straight line. This happens very fast, over short distances, with soft-to-medium speed shots.

Williebetmore said:
As I am pocketing the balls consistently, I don't want to change my method; but it definitely bugs me if the physics of my assumptions is in error.:(
Just change "squirt" to "squerve" (the combination of squirt and swerve) and everything will still make sense.

Williebetmore said:
Did you test the hypothesis with an OB-1 shaft?
No.

Williebetmore said:
I'm thinking there may be a difference.
Why do you think this? A low-squirt cue reduces the amount of squirt but has no direct effect on swerve and how it varies with speed, cue elevation, amount and type of English, ball and cloth conditions, shot distance, etc.

Regards,
Dave
 
follow/draw effects on throw

Peer said:
The item that perplexes me the most is #20 "Both follow and draw reduce throw, and they do so by the same amount."

Didn't think a follow-shot would reduce throw... rather the opposite.
See my October '06 article. I present some experimental data that backs up the claims.

Follow and draw shots have less throw because the throwing force isn't sideways as it is with a stun shot with English. With a follow shot, the force is down some and with a draw shot, the force is up some, so less force pushes sideways (in the throw direction).

Now, you might be thinking of OB swerve, where the downward force creates a small amount of masse spin on the OB. This effect is there but it is extremely small. The data in my article show this (and I also have a math/physics-based proof in TP A.24 for the physics nerds out there).

Regards,
Dave
 
more English = less throw

Peer said:
#23 "More English gives you more SIT only up to a point. Additional English beyond that point actually reduces the amount of SIT."

To me it sounds a bit strange that you can actually reduce throw by applying English.
FYI, my December '06 article covers this fairly well.

The amount of SIT is maximum with a slow stun shot with about 50% English (1/2 of maximum English).

With more spin, the relative speed of sliding between the CB and OB increases, and friction between pool balls is less at faster sliding speeds. That's why adding more English (beyond 50%) results in less throw.

Regards,
Dave
 
"tips of English"

av84fun said:
How do you measure tip offset such that you can use "several tips" of english? Offsetting by a full tip radius permits only about 2 tips maximum.
Jim,

I don't like using the phrase "tips of English" because different people mean different things by the phrase. Some people mean "number of shaft widths", some people mean "number of chalk contact patch widths," and some people have their own measure (e.g., number of "clicks"). I think the most common definition is "number of shaft widths." The problem with this is the actual amount of English applied (for a given number of "tips") depends on the shaft diameter and the shape of the tip. FYI to you and others, my January '08 and July '06 articles have some good diagrams to illustrate all of this. The articles also make a good case for using a percentages measure instead (e.g., 25%, 50%, 100% English). I think there would be less confusion if everybody used the percentage method.

Regards,
Dave
 
up or down swipe = less throw

mikepage said:
And here's why topspin (and bottom spin) reduce throw. A SWIPE only applies so much force. With sidespin only, the swipe is directed sideways (giving throw). With sidespin and topspin, the swipe is directed part sideways and part down. So the sideways component of the swipe is less.
Mike,

Excellent summary!

The "up" or "down" part does create a tiny amount of OB swerve, changing the effective throw angle slightly, but the effect is tiny. The data in my October '06 article and the "equations" in TP A.24 prove just how small the effect is.

Regards,
Dave
 
Squirt or squerve can be canceled using back-hand English (BHE) and/or front-hand English (FHE) aim-and-pivot methods (see my November '07 article).

I didn't read your whole post because I don't like to read and have trouble comprehending long posts, articles, etc. online, but I did attempt to read the link for this point.

After reading that article, it seems this point can be summed up by saying as long as your bridge is at the pivot point you'll cancel swerve.

That's true if you don't move your bridge off the shot line, like if you line up centerball and then pivot at your bridge (BHE). But having the pivot point at your bridge won't work with FHE and it won't necessarily work if you just get into your stance with your aim already adjusted (what some players mistakenly call "parallel" english), because your bridge might not end up on the centerball aim line.

As I see it there is no other type of english, you either move your back hand (pivot), or move your bridge hand.

Those two ways only work if your pivot point is at your bridge (for BHE) or at your grip hand (for FHE). Even then you could just get into your stance with your aim already adjusted, as I described above (that's how I do it), although the outcome is the same as if you used BHE or FHE.

But if your pivot point isn't at your bridge or at your grip hand, then neither BHE or FHE will work. Then you have to use a combination of the two or simply adjust by feel as I do. I think this is the case for the vast majority of sticks.

Edit: Also, this doesn't take into account swerve, as Dr. Dave points out below.

pj
chgo
 
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squerve aim compensation

Patrick Johnson said:
Dave, that's an excellent list of squirt/swerve/throw principles.

I have a comment about one of them, which is correct but maybe incomplete. It would be more clear, at least to me, with the following additional language (or something like it):

6. Squirt or squerve can be canceled using back-hand English (BHE) and/or front-hand English (FHE) aim-and-pivot methods or any other method that results in equivalent compensated aim.
Sounds good to me.

Thanks,
Dave
 
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