Stan Shuffet Challenge

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duckie said:
Then what are they aiming at?

How do you know what someone is aiming it?

If they say contact point, why would you assume they are not?

Most CTE user are really using Ghostball users, they just don't know it, despite the claims they make.
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Guess again. That's one of the more absurd allegations I've heard on here and that covers a lot of ground.

Before CTE, I mostly used fractional aiming. I could never see how Ghost ball aiming could be effective so I didn't bother with it. The closest thing to ghost ball I'd consider using would be contact point to contact point.
 
duckie said:
Then what are they aiming at? Something

How do you know what someone is aiming it? Actually your not supposed to know,your not them.

If they say contact point, why would you assume they are not? Because if the balls goes in ,their not actually aiming at the contact point, maybe close to it.

Most CTE user are really using Ghostball users, they just don't know it, despite the claims they make.
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Why would you say your being used??


I think I know why i drink..:D
 
duckie said:
Then what are they aiming at?

How do you know what someone is aiming it?

If they say contact point, why would you assume they are not?

Most CTE user are really using Ghostball users, they just don't know it, despite the claims they make.
Click to expand...

Greg,

When the cue ball contacts the object ball & it pockets then the cue ball did go into the Ghost Ball position. So if that is what you mean then yes EVERYONE is 'really' using Ghost Ball.

BUT...they are NOT focused on ghost ball in their minds nor with their eyes. They are focusing in their minds & with their eyes on something else.

They are using other systems or methods to arrive at the Ghost Ball POSITION.

That does NOT mean that they are USING ghost ball as an aiming or targeting method as you do.

If the ghost ball method of aiming works for you then that's great, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE beyond a novice has left ghost ball aiming for something that they felt was better.

IF Mr. Crane was still using Ghost Ball at the height of his playing carrier I'd say that he was the exception rather than the norm for his playing competitors. Mr. Crane was certainly ONE of the best players of his time BUT there were many others right there with him.

I hope you can see my points. Can one become world champion using ghost ball? Why not? The thing is almost all will move on from ghost ball for a variety of personal reasons.

When I shoot with 'parallel' outside english, is the time that I am most 'focused' on what would be the ghost ball position but it is secondary to my main focus which is what fractional overlap do I need align to pocket the ball & how am I going to get there. So...in essence I'm using 3 forms of 'shooting'. Where's the contact point, what's the fractional overlap, & is that the correct ghost ball position? My cue stick is 'aimed' at none of them.

Again I hope you can see my point. Everyone is using physics but very few if anyone's mind is focused on the physics.

If you use ghost ball 'aiming' for the entire time that you play the game I'd say that you would be an exception & there is nothing wrong with that as long as you are happy with it,

That said, the chances of converting others to go back to what they knew & decided to leave for what they decided was something better for them I would say is all but impossible.

Again I hope you can see my well intended points.

Best Wishes & Shoot Well,
Rick
 
English, quick question.

I never heard of ghost ball or focused on an imaginary ball. I saw the angle and on non english shots, aimed my cue stick on a line to put the CB at that angle. My focus point is the line.

Someone told me what I do is a type of ghost ball aiming. Not sure I agree, but I never heard of ghost ball before. Do you categorize what I do as a type of ghost ball aiming or something else ?
 
ronscuba said:
English, quick question.

I never heard of ghost ball or focused on an imaginary ball. I saw the angle and on non english shots, aimed my cue stick on a line to put the CB at that angle. My focus point is the line.

Someone told me what I do is a type of ghost ball aiming. Not sure I agree, but I never heard of ghost ball before. Do you categorize what I do as a type of ghost ball aiming or something else ?
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Ron,

I'm no expert, but I would venture to say yes. If you are focused on the center of what would be the ghost ball & are employing no other means but the visualization of that Ghost Ball position to align your cue, then I would hazard to say that you are using ghost ball as your method of 'aiming'. Perhaps you should consult Duckie/Greg as he is still using ghost ball.

I don't know how long you have been playing but I would find it difficult to believe that you have not started to use other 'Tactical' input to assist you such as fractional overlap, etc. You may be doing something like that subconsciously.

I very quickly, at age 13, went to the fractional overlap concept from trying to target the center of an imaginary ball. I thought I had invented it as all that I had been shown by my Dad was the Ghost Ball position to pocket the ball.

To me, that was more finite visually than shooting to an empty space & hope that I guessed correctly. Perhaps Stan would refer to it as more 'objective'. I would disagree because it was still my subjective perception that I was using to 'create' the line that I thought would get the cue ball to the 'ghost ball' position. Once I started using english on nearly every shot it became a much more dynamic method that relied more on feel than any sight based alignment. Yes I still looked at the OB & where I wanted to contact it with the CB but my cue was not sighted by ghost ball center nor fractional overlap.

I hope I answered your question by giving my opinion & sorry for the rant that was a bit off topic.

Best to Ya',
Rick
 
From what I've read here on AZ, there are frequent debates and discussions where people are actually agreeing and saying the same thing, they just differ on how they say it.

They either argue about what the correct terminology is or they don't realize they agree and keep arguing.

I asked my question to see if there was some kind of consensus on what to call my aim method. Although I focus on the CB rolling line, to establish that line I visualize contact points, collisions, fractional overlaps, contact point line, parallel lines. So, to me, if what I do is a form of ghost ball, then so are all of the above.
 
ronscuba said:
From what I've read here on AZ, there are frequent debates and discussions where people are actually agreeing and saying the same thing, they just differ on how they say it.

They either argue about what the correct terminology is or they don't realize they agree and keep arguing.

I asked my question to see if there was some kind of consensus on what to call my aim method. Although I focus on the CB rolling line, to establish that line I visualize contact points, collisions, fractional overlaps, contact point line, parallel lines. So, to me, if what I do is a form of ghost ball, then so are all of the above.
Click to expand...

If you're comfortable with it and it works for you, call it Ron's Aiming Method. All that really matters is it works and you like it. Win some major tournaments and you can start teaching it for pay perhaps.
 
ronscuba said:
From what I've read here on AZ, there are frequent debates and discussions where people are actually agreeing and saying the same thing, they just differ on how they say it.

They either argue about what the correct terminology is or they don't realize they agree and keep arguing.

I asked my question to see if there was some kind of consensus on what to call my aim method. Although I focus on the CB rolling line, to establish that line I visualize contact points, collisions, fractional overlaps, contact point line, parallel lines. So, to me, if what I do is a form of ghost ball, then so are all of the above.
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Ron,

Like I said, I would find it hard to believe, if you have been playing for any real length of time, that you are not using other 'tactical' input. Now that you say that you ARE using all of those other things, then I would say NO...you are not using ghost ball as your method of 'aiming' as you are influencing your determination as to the line by all of those other things.

I agree with you about the discussion/argument nature of things & have often said that it comes down to nomenclature or semantics or a disagreement on definitions.

Why did you ask me a question & leave out so much pertinent information?

Why did you even ask me the question instead of just making your own statement?

Why did you waste my time in typing out a reply based on false information?

Rick

PS My Dad never called it ghost ball. So, I had never heard of Ghost Ball either until much later in life. As long as balls are getting pocketed it does not matter what it's called. But... when someone is adept at pocketing balls, inquiring minds want to know what method they are using.

PPS CTE is put forth as a 'totally objective system'. If true, it would be of great value as it would take out all subjective 'guesswork' as long as one had decent vision & is capable of 'seeing' straight lines. However, IMHO it would still be of a subjective nature as to where the midway point is from the viewing area whether one is 'seeing' parallel lines or lines along the type of a trapezoid. To me, it is still rather complex & would take much time & effort to become adept at it. Can it be done? Obviously so. To me, it's sort of like CJ Wiley so often says, 'put it on a shelf as you may want to come back to it sometime in the future'. I am intrigued with CTE, but for now it is just not for me.
 
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nobcitypool said:
If you're comfortable with it and it works for you, call it Ron's Aiming Method. All that really matters is it works and you like it. Win some major tournaments and you can start teaching it for pay perhaps.
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LOL !

Speaking with friends and other pool players, everyone has their own method. Most are similar to one another, but vary slightly on the specifics.

Conversation with an instructor:

Instr: Why are you thinking about aiming ? Making the ball is not an issue for you. You've made every shot on the table many times. At your level, that is the least of your worries.

Me: Maybe I've lost a little confidence or there is a problem with my stroke mechanics.

Instr: Well then the issue is your confidence, not your aiming. Nothing wrong with your mechanics.


I think my mind gets sucked in to aiming and mechanics because they are such frequent topics here on AZ.


English, sorry you feel I wasted your time. I don't fixate on terminology and am uninformed on what is considered correct by the masses. I asked because I was told my method is ghost ball, but I felt differently. Was curious about your opinion.

So long story short, there are different opinions on what is considered ghost ball or variations of ghost ball.
 
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ronscuba said:
From what I've read here on AZ, there are frequent debates and discussions where people are actually agreeing and saying the same thing, they just differ on how they say it.

They either argue about what the correct terminology is or they don't realize they agree and keep arguing.

I asked my question to see if there was some kind of consensus on what to call my aim method. Although I focus on the CB rolling line, to establish that line I visualize contact points, collisions, fractional overlaps, contact point line, parallel lines. So, to me, if what I do is a form of ghost ball, then so are all of the above.
Click to expand...

It is unless you aim the tip imo.
When you visualize the two balls colliding ( be it as spheres or 2 1/4"
Discs) you are imagining a ghost ball.
 
ronscuba said:
LOL !

Speaking with friends and other pool players, everyone has their own method. Most are similar to one another, but vary slightly on the specifics.

Conversation with an instructor:

Instr: Why are you thinking about aiming ? Making the ball is not an issue for you. You've made every shot on the table many times. At your level, that is the least of your worries.

Me: Maybe I've lost a little confidence or there is a problem with my stroke mechanics.

Instr: Well then the issue is your confidence, not your aiming. Nothing wrong with your mechanics.


I think my mind gets sucked in to aiming and mechanics because they are such frequent topics here on AZ.


English, sorry you feel I wasted your time. I don't fixate on terminology and am uninformed on what is considered correct by the masses. I asked because I was told my method is ghost ball, but I felt differently. Was curious about your opinion.

So long story short, there are different opinions on what is considered ghost ball or variations of ghost ball.
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Ron,

I agree with you on differences of opinion. but why did you cloak your question to me in a false set-up & basically make me answer twice.

If your outline of the conversation with an instructor is true & is related to you, I would suggest that you simply stop reading AZB & play.

Why don't you explain your method of 'aiming' in step by step detail so as to help others become so adept? NO...don't do that it will probably mess you up so bad that you might never again pocket two balls in row.

Shoot well,
Rick
 
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ronscuba said:
LOL !

Speaking with friends and other pool players, everyone has their own method. Most are similar to one another, but vary slightly on the specifics.

Conversation with an instructor:

Instr: Why are you thinking about aiming ? Making the ball is not an issue for you. You've made every shot on the table many times. At your level, that is the least of your worries.

Me: Maybe I've lost a little confidence or there is a problem with my stroke mechanics.

Instr: Well then the issue is your confidence, not your aiming. Nothing wrong with your mechanics.


I think my mind gets sucked in to aiming and mechanics because they are such frequent topics here on AZ.


English, sorry you feel I wasted your time. I don't fixate on terminology and am uninformed on what is considered correct by the masses. I asked because I was told my method is ghost ball, but I felt differently. Was curious about your opinion.

So long story short, there are different opinions on what is considered ghost ball or variations of ghost ball.
Click to expand...

So you pissed off English? LMAO Put him on ignore like I did over a year ago. It will improve your experience here substantially.
 
duckie said:
Then what are they aiming at?

How do you know what someone is aiming it?

If they say contact point, why would you assume they are not?

Most CTE user are really using Ghostball users, they just don't know it, despite the claims they make.
Click to expand...

I generally try to be respectful in my posts, but this may be the worst post I have read on here that pertains to actual pool subject matter. Not only is it completely incorrect, there is absolutely no basis to draw this conclusion from. I don't personally care if anyone does or does not decide that CTE is for them, but to come on here and make a statement like this that is this far off base makes the poster look unintelligent and ungrounded in their pool knowledge. I apologize for the harshness of this post, and I am more than happy to allow each person here to have their own opinion, but this post comes across as a petty attempt to devalue something that the original poster obviously knows nothing about, but has a personal vendetta against. If you had any real working knowledge of CTE, you would never make that statement, and the fact that you did shows how little you know. I would happily discuss the merits, methods and values of any system that I have any knowledge of, but it makes no sense to discuss a topic with someone who can't/won't see past their own nose in regards to the topic.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Greg,

When the cue ball contacts the object ball & it pockets then the cue ball did go into the Ghost Ball position. So if that is what you mean then yes EVERYONE is 'really' using Ghost Ball.

BUT...they are NOT focused on ghost ball in their minds nor with their eyes. They are focusing in their minds & with their eyes on something else.

They are using other systems or methods to arrive at the Ghost Ball POSITION.

That does NOT mean that they are USING ghost ball as an aiming or targeting method as you do.

If the ghost ball method of aiming works for you then that's great, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE beyond a novice has left ghost ball aiming for something that they felt was better.

IF Mr. Crane was still using Ghost Ball at the height of his playing carrier I'd say that he was the exception rather than the norm for his playing competitors. Mr. Crane was certainly ONE of the best players of his time BUT there were many others right there with him.

I hope you can see my points. Can one become world champion using ghost ball? Why not? The thing is almost all will move on from ghost ball for a variety of personal reasons.

When I shoot with 'parallel' outside english, is the time that I am most 'focused' on what would be the ghost ball position but it is secondary to my main focus which is what fractional overlap do I need align to pocket the ball & how am I going to get there. So...in essence I'm using 3 forms of 'shooting'. Where's the contact point, what's the fractional overlap, & is that the correct ghost ball position? My cue stick is 'aimed' at none of them.

Again I hope you can see my point. Everyone is using physics but very few if anyone's mind is focused on the physics.

If you use ghost ball 'aiming' for the entire time that you play the game I'd say that you would be an exception & there is nothing wrong with that as long as you are happy with it,

That said, the chances of converting others to go back to what they knew & decided to leave for what they decided was something better for them I would say is all but impossible.

Again I hope you can see my well intended points.

Best Wishes & Shoot Well,
Rick
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This is a very well written response to the post he quoted. I did originally think that he may be suggesting that all aiming systems just get you into the ghost ball position, but that is an obvious given for all aiming, and I really don't think that is what he is implying (although I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am) given what I have read from his previous posts.
 
mantis99 said:
This is a very well written response to the post he quoted. I did originally think that he may be suggesting that all aiming systems just get you into the ghost ball position, but that is an obvious given for all aiming, and I really don't think that is what he is implying (although I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am) given what I have read from his previous posts.
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mantis,

Thank you for your compliment on my post. I certainly am NOT sure what Greg means in the post you quoted but perhaps it is because CTE winds up with a center hit on the Cue Ball & if the ball pockets then the cue stick is 'aiming' at Ghost Ball center unlike when hitting with any form of english or deflection where the line of the cue stick is not 'aiming' at ghost ball center.

That would be my best guess.

The thing is that no thought or focus by the CTE user was ever given to the Ghost Ball center to arrive at that line & I doubt seriously that any CTE user is looking at the ghost ball center when they make their stroke. I would guess that they are looking at the cue ball & focusing on making a straight stroke. It would be interesting to me to see a curtain drop between the CB & OB after CTE has been used for the shooter to get his, or her, visual perceptions & then have them get down & make the pivot & pocket the ball. If that can be down over & over again, it would peak my intrigue with CTE.

For me when using the fractional overlap method with no english my eye is on the the overlap line even though my cue stick hopefully is on the center cue ball to center ghost ball line. Greg might say that I am using ghost ball, but to me I am not. I say that because my focus is NOT on the center location of the ghost ball & never was, but instead on the fractional overlap line that is parallel to the center to center CB to GB line. Yes ghost ball may be the basis to arrive at the overlap but it is NOT any conscious method. At least not to me.

Like Ronscuba said much is about terminology that I call nomenclature or semantics.

Thanks again for the compliment, Shoot Well & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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mantis99 said:
This is a very well written response to the post he quoted. I did originally think that he may be suggesting that all aiming systems just get you into the ghost ball position, but that is an obvious given for all aiming, and I really don't think that is what he is implying (although I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am) given what I have read from his previous posts.
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I agree; Rick did a great job with that response. One thing about duckie, is that he's Mr. Literal and will use colloquialism loopholes to try to poke into any aiming system's stance.

When someone says "half-ball hit," he'll say that it's impossible. (I.e. that it's "impossible for two spheres to contact each over half their surface area.")

When someone says "center-ball hit," he'll say that's impossible. (I.e. "you need a drill to get to the center of the ball" -- an actual response by him [no kidding].)

That's just scratching the surface... oh wait, that's impossible as well, because forum topics don't have a literal "surface." ;)

-Sean
 
Something I learn a long time ago was "Say what you mean, Mean what you say."

I can go only by what someone has written. If they can not write what they mean, it is not my fault nor is it my responsibility to try and figure out what they meant.

Has the math and CTE coming?
 
Something I learn a long time ago was "Say what you mean, Mean what you say."

I can go only by what someone has written. If they can not write what they mean, it is not my fault nor is it my responsibility to try and figure out what they meant.

Hows the math and CTE coming? Remember in the real world balls do not have edges, just a surface. Unless you want to say the whole math community is just saying that but don't really believe it.
 
ENGLISH! said:
... It would be interesting to me to see a curtain drop between the CB & OB after CTE has been used for the shooter to get his, or her, visual perceptions & then have them get down & make the pivot & pocket the ball. If that can be down over & over again, it would peak my intrigue with CTE.
Click to expand...

Yes, that has previously been suggested/requested. That would be a more severe test than just having the curtain blocking sight of the pocket. Blocking sight of the OB would eliminate the possibility of fine-tuning "feel" adjustments, which some people (though certainly not Stan) believe are necessary for the CTE/ProOne process to be completed successfully for all cut angles.

ENGLISH! said:
For me when using the fractional overlap method with no english my eye is on the the overlap line even though my cue stick hopefully is on the center cue ball to center ghost ball line. Greg might say that I am using ghost ball, but to me I am not. I say that because my focus is NOT on the center location of the ghost ball & never was, but instead on the fractional overlap line that is parallel to the center to center CB to GB line. Yes ghost ball may be the basis to arrive at the overlap but it is NOT any conscious method. At least not to me. ...
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I agree, what you do is not ghost-ball aiming. I think of it as a form of contact-point-to-contact-point aiming, even though you concentrate on the overlapping portions rather than the two contact points. Your method was called the "2-point equal portion system" in Marvin Chin's 1982 book billiards accuracy. When using that method, I sometimes try to envision a plane rising vertically from the table and cutting off those two equal portions. For a no-sidespin shot, place the stick parallel to that plane, pointing through the center of the CB, and stroke the shot. Another mental image is of a monorail running from CB to OB through the two contact points, or cutting off equal portions of the balls. Then you just send the CB on its way, riding on the off-centered monorail, to the OB.
 
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