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Statement from The Legends of Pocket Billiards
- Thread starter lfigueroa
- Start date
kanzzo
hobby player
started a new thread here:
Perfect rack is bad for straight pool
The European Championships in Straight pool used tapped table for straight pool and left is, because it became apparent, that it's not good for the sport. It became an advantage to break the ball because you could call front ball into the side...
forums.azbilliards.com
discussion is welcome
here is the ball played by Jayson on day 1:
so please consider the following rule for the (future) 14.1 high run attempts:
Calls out of an untouched rack are not allowed.
Edit:
otherwise this is what 14.1 could soon look like. (I am bout 95% to make this ball from the right angle, so position is still needed to get on this ball). And these are 4 1/4'' pockets.
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So when you say that. You mean the world rules should consider adding: "Calls out of an untouched rack are not allowed".
Since to the best of my knowledge there is no rule against templates (of any sort) in 14.1. They should either write a rule stating triangles are required for racking (doesn't prevent a perfect rack), or any 'untouched' rack can not be called out of. I like the later...
kanzzo
hobby player
exactly. Like soft break in 9 Ball is not allowed any longer. Either adding "Calls out of an untouched rack are not allowed" or going back to triangles for racking.
On the video I used Magic rack from 10 ball. So it's still different a little every time. Perma Rack makes same rack on the table every time. Would probably improve the percentage of this ball to 98%+
kanzzo
hobby player
it probably needs the WPA a little longer to add this rule,
But Bobby could implement this rule for the 14.1 challenge starting tomorrow
(and AZ Billiards could add this rule for the Straight Pool Challenge)
Although I can say that I purposely don't play dead balls out of an untouched rack. It's probably wishful thinking for it to be employed by anyone looking to set some level of record when it is not a requirement otherwise.
kanzzo
hobby player
For John Schmidt it was very important to play only balls in his run that there high percentage and would be played by an old time straight pool player. Sometimes you have to play a bank or a tough combination but John was very glad, he didn't need any banks for his 626. He would prefer a lower percentage cut to the middle pocket to a higher percentage bank to the middle pocket, just so his run won't get critique for some crazy ball selection.
Jayson missed position on the break ball and had to play the corner ball in this video. Bobby was very proud of the way, the run could be continued.
I hope my video showed, that on this rack it is nothing to be proud of.
apologies but this post screams bias....For John Schmidt it was very important to play only balls in his run that there high percentage and would be played by an old time straight pool player. Sometimes you have to play a bank or a tough combination but John was very glad, he didn't need any banks for his 626. He would prefer a lower percentage cut to the middle pocket to a higher percentage bank to the middle pocket, just so his run won't get critique for some crazy ball selection.
Jayson missed position on the break ball and had to play the corner ball in this video. Bobby was very proud of the way, the run could be continued.
I hope my video showed, that on this rack it is nothing to be proud of.
"improtant for John to play old time straight pool shots" vs "Jason shouldn't be proud of his play"
Before you go off the deep end, I'm clearly using your comments on a wide sweeping brush, and the words in the quotes above aren't verbatim. ...but I'm still using your words.
I can't even continue replying as this is such fabricated crap on John's end that my head is spinning as I'm even just typing this. The notion that John would not have done anything to get that 527th ball is ridiculous. Regardless if it were a dead ball, bank, carom, 'new timey'..., etc.
kanzzo
hobby player
these are straight pool rules for the last 100 years ^^
introducing Perma-Rackt to get every 14 balls frozen every time is something very new. As I wrote before: it was tested on the European 14.1 championships and it was abandoned.
Playing soft break on 9 Ball was abandoned also.
So it's open to discussion. My point of view is that this balls are not in the spirit of straight pool, how it is supposed to be played
kanzzo
hobby player
this is what he told in his DVDs and the way he played straight pool for the 20 years prior to his world record. He probably would have taken a record of 526+ even playing some unorthodox shots. But he pointed out multiple times, he was very happy he didn't need to.
He did this record first of all for himself. And this was important to him.
But yes, there could be some hindsight bias and it wasn't really the point.
I was just proposing this as a new rule for straight pool high runs:
"Calls out of an untouched rack are not allowed"
Uh huh...
Fair enough, but it doesn't matter what you say to someone while screaming. They're still going to take exception to the volume.
I like it... Can't imagine it ever happening though. 14.1 purists don't even want templates used at all. The notion of adapting rules for their use. Despite the intent. Will be a tough sale.
kanzzo
hobby player
This is where I got my comment from.
0:50 "I feel sick shooting the bank because I feel the run almost doesn't count"
"in the case I run 500 here I don't wanna hear "yeah, but he banked one""
kanzzo
hobby player
And I didn't say anything about Jayson, he was warming up and getting a feel for the table and was kinda banging around. It was the first session at the table.
Bobby was so impressed with this shot that he stepped into the camera and said to the viewers "How you liked that?" (1:23)
So just answering his question. I absolutely didn't like that. It's incredibly easy to do on Perma-Rack and I feel the run doesn't count. (It was a run of something like 56 balls and not his world record run. But I think a rule to prevent this in the world record run is still needed.)
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John is just talking here, I wouldn’t take what he is saying too seriously. He’s just trying to emphasize how much he values playing classic straight pool.
If he was on 518, and had no break shot I can almost guarantee he would try to call a ball out of the rack and he would do a three rail combo carom bank if he was on 525.
kanzzo
hobby player
and this is why we need rules beforehand. To know which balls count and which don't. So we don't have to rely on the judgement of a player being close to his goal, he had for the last 20 years.
The corner ball was never the issue racking the balls with the triangle, there are always small gaps between some spots and this makes this shot a big gamble. And racking with a triangle you never get two racks exactly the same.
Straight pool is about key balls and position on break ball and controlled break shot with CB getting in middle of the table. Not learning 4-5 ways to call a ball from the undisturbed rack and being able to always continue your run no matter where you end up at the end of the rack.
Is it easy?
I use a magic rack when I play straight pool. I’ve sometimes attempted a shot I first saw Souquet play: firing into one of the two head balls and banking the other head ball into the opposite side pocket. I think I’ve made that shot twice out of 20-30 times. There are several shots like this, all of them very difficult to pull off. Well, not difficult, just random.
EDIT: Sorry, that wasn’t the post the I was supposed to reply to
Was supposed to reply to an earlier post of yours.We already have rules in place. You just don't happen to like the ability for players to shoot dead balls from a solid rack. I happen to think the triangle outline is a farse. Lets be objective here. If the rack was done correctly, then a dead ball is just as playable from a triangle rack vs a template rack.
When did players get the opprotunity to make the rules on the fly...? Is there some version of 14.1 where this is allowed..? I'd be crazy good at that game.
A flaw of the triangle, not a benefit. Of course I guess depends if you think you should have a solid rack to break into to begin with. Someone else in another part of the forum hates templates as well. Something about templates taking away some level of purity from the game. I asked if they'd be annoyed if they're opponent slug racked them. Seeing as gaps between racked balls seems to have some level of purity. Didn't get a direct answer to that question.
No straight pool is about putting more balls into pockets then your opponet. Everything else is subjective opinion.
calling a ball from the unbroken rack has a long history.
In November, on Friday the thirteenth, I ran 365 while playing Nixon Jones in Wilmington, North Carolina. I knew Nixon fairly well. He was the owner of the establishment, and I had played there quite often when I was in that part of the country. What was most interesting about that game was that I made the run off my own break. I called the one ball, at the front of the triangle, in the left side pocket. It’s a shot that can be made maybe one time in three, but you can never take a chance on it in a tournament. What you do is hit the cue ball high and drive it into the right side of the one ball. If you hit the cue ball in the center, it will force the object ball forward; if you hit it high, with force-follow, the one will carom and bounce back toward the left side. On this occasion, the ball dropped in the pocket and I went on from there, without missing, for more than an hour and a half.
Cohen, Stanley; Mosconi, Willie. Willie's Game: An Autobiography . Open Road Media. Kindle Edition.
In November, on Friday the thirteenth, I ran 365 while playing Nixon Jones in Wilmington, North Carolina. I knew Nixon fairly well. He was the owner of the establishment, and I had played there quite often when I was in that part of the country. What was most interesting about that game was that I made the run off my own break. I called the one ball, at the front of the triangle, in the left side pocket. It’s a shot that can be made maybe one time in three, but you can never take a chance on it in a tournament. What you do is hit the cue ball high and drive it into the right side of the one ball. If you hit the cue ball in the center, it will force the object ball forward; if you hit it high, with force-follow, the one will carom and bounce back toward the left side. On this occasion, the ball dropped in the pocket and I went on from there, without missing, for more than an hour and a half.
Cohen, Stanley; Mosconi, Willie. Willie's Game: An Autobiography . Open Road Media. Kindle Edition.
kanzzo
hobby player
I think I am best at shooting dead balls from a solid rack at my level of play. I alway call front ball in straight pool if I loose the lag. I had multiple runs continued if I didn't get position on the break ball.
It's a science to read a rack and take gaps into account. It takes away this knowledge from the player, if the rack is same every time.
And it took me a little to understand, how the discussion got this turn arguing about Schmidt.
This sentence got me to mention Schmidt. He was looking to set a record and I remembered from interviews and DVDs that it was important for him. So just an example to prove your point wrong.