You can forget the word "intentional" in this matter. What matters is what happened with the shot, not whether you intended or didn't intend to do it (who can read your mind?). If I intend to just barely skim the edge of an object ball in the pack and send the cue ball up table for a safety, but I fail and miss the edge entirely, the result (foul wise) is exactly the same as if I intended, and succeeded in, just barely missing the edge of that object ball and sending the cue ball up table -- a 1-point foul in either case.
Straight Pool Rules Question
- Thread starter L.S. Dennis
- Start date
L.S. Dennis
Well-known member
Well the word “intentional“ in pool parlance is used for a reason by pool commentators who describe a shot taken by a person who soft rolls a ball ‘intentionally’ up against the stack to take what is universally understood to be an intentional foul. I suspect this subject is at a closing point now since no one can show a specific rule in writing that deals specifically to the subject. Probably the answer you gave in an earlier post is most likely the correct one, in that you don’t have to touch another ball when playing an intentional foul. Maybe at some point the WPA/BCA will address this in some future publication.
These red-fonted words perfectly answer the OPs question. Perfect, because any additional words, phrases or sentences beyond that, can't enhance the understandability (and dead-on applicability).
You're da man, DD. Occam's Razor alive and well.
Arnaldo ~ A whimsical but accurate note: all sports have a tiny quotient of "intentionally foul" individuals but our sport's requisite perfection of execution weeds them out very efficiently.
Yes, of course, the word intentional is common parlance in describing some foul shots in pool games. My point was that the rules do not try to distinguish between an intentional foul and an unintentional foul, they just address what is required for a legal shot (where "shot" has a specific definition). If the requirements are not met, it is a foul, whether done intentionally or unintentionally.
And, to repeat -- no, you do not have to contact an object ball when intentionally taking a foul. That is done quite often in 14.1 games.
But the general subject of trying to foul intentionally in close quarters has long been a subject of discussion, and my post #6 addressed what is required. Here's a thread from 2009 that discussed this issue (starting with post #30): https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/rules-question.156475/
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I should point out: Nothing in the rules specifies that the CB need actually move. Only that a ‘forward stroke’ be applied. I could imagine a situation where the CB was frozen to an OB, and a soft legal draw stroke aimed directly into the OB would leave the CB immobile.
L.S. Dennis
Well-known member
I think we’re pretty much on the same page on all this, my original question that started all this is ‘do you have to touch an object ball when taking an intentional foul and you answered it correctly no. I couldn’t have dreamed this would morf into everything that has followed.
These are your original questions: "... he just touches the cue not hitting anything. Is this a legal intentional foul? If not what happens in this situation?"
If he just touches the cue ball without a FORWARD STROKE it is an intentional foul. Please describe how he touched the cue (ball). That will answer the first question. Second question answer depends on clarification of the first question.
Another thought for clarification of the second answer: Is this a refereed match? Or using normal 'house rules'? Were any rules decided before start of play? There have been a lot of arguments due to this lack of clarification. In these situations it is merely a lack of players establishing the rules. It happens often in One Pocket games depending on where you are playing.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
There should be something like a pushout.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
It seems like BIH is used in games where you don't have a one ball penalty for a foul, like one pocket, 14.1, and banks.
L.S. Dennis
Well-known member
This was a match between a friend and myself the other day so no there wasn’t a referee involved. And the shot in question was his, after I slow rolled the cue ball against the stack for the intentional foul, he slow rolled his shot ’away’ from the stack also for an intentional foul so there was a forward stroke on his part.
I‘ve been playing straight pool since 1962 and have never run up against this before oddly enough.
Good explanation....that is an intentional foul....penalty is loss of one point.
My confusion was if it was not a legal shot such as: 1. Just tapping the cue ball on top. 2.Pushing the cue ball. 3. Putting the cue stick under the cue ball and lifting up thus moving the cue ball without moving the cue stick forward. 4. Etc. These are considered unsportsmanship like conduct and would have to be discussed between the players since there is no referee.
I'm all for expedience. Ball in hand.
For those with a foot in the past, larger penalties:
One hole, at least minus 2 and maybe progressive penalties IOW then minus 3, 4 and so on.
14.1, minus 10 or more with or without incremental progression.
For those with a foot in the past, larger penalties:
One hole, at least minus 2 and maybe progressive penalties IOW then minus 3, 4 and so on.
14.1, minus 10 or more with or without incremental progression.
Thanks for sharing your opinion...but these are not in the rules.
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There is no minimum motion needed, but it has to be a legal stroke. Meaning forward motion, with the tip. No tapping the top of the cueball with the shaft, no moving it with your hand, etc... Trying to bypass doing a legal hit is an unsportsmanlike conduct violation.
Schmules. Especially combat fouls. The rules need revision.
So, I've been playing straight pool since the 50's and for some reason never went down this rabbit hole. I keep hearing legal intentional foul over and over in this discussion, but what exactly is the penalty for an "illegal" (intentional??) foul. Are there illegal unintentional fouls? We play touch any ball with anything (other than the cue ball with the cue tip when making a legal shot), your shirt or whatever, is a foul. One point penalty and the other player shoots. Not intentional, but it's a foul. So if it's intentional, then what. I have never heard of a rule on illegal intentional fouls as to what the penalty is. The one guy I play a regular 14:1 game with says if one player scratches and the other player gets ball in hand in the kitchen, he must shoot the cue ball out of the kitchen for an intentional foul. This would prevent putting the cue ball in the jaws of the pocket and touching it with the cue as described above, but still does not answer "what happens if it's not a legal foul", that is, what's the penalty?
VTEC John
Active member
Good question(s). I figure the only alternative to making a legal foul is to incur a foul that constitutes unsportsmanlike conduct, which would presumably incur a penalty assessed by the referee, or a warning. But the rule books seem sorely lacking on the whole question.
How do you feel the World Standardized Rules could be improved in this area?
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Bob, these are not 14:1 rules. I think the questions here relate only to 14:1. I did find a reference in the BCA 14:1 regulations regarding what they call a special "deliberate foul" that says you incur an additonal 15 point penalty, however, the description of what is a "special deliberate foul" is not what we are speaking of here. Seems the problem is what is required to make a legal deliberate foul and I don't see that anywhere. I think that is the unanswered question here.
"A player may not catch, touch or in any way interfere with a ball as it travels toward a pocket or the rack area on a shot (to include catching a ball as it enters a pocket by having a hand in the ball as it enters a pocket by having a hand in the pocket). Doing so is a special "deliberate foul" and is penalized one point for the foul and an additional 15 point penalty, for a total of 16 points. The incoming player then has choice of (1) accepting the table in position with the cue ball in hand behind the head string, or (2) having all 15 balls re-racked and requiring the offending player to shoot under the requirements of the opening break."
The rules I linked to include the World Standardized Rules for 14.1. The rule you quoted above is not in the current WSR but it may have been in a BCA rule book years ago. The incoming player has no such option now. The action of catching a ball is unsportsmanlike conduct and is penalized according to the situation. The range of penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct is described in the WSR.
If you take a shot and it's a foul, it's penalized as a foul. Intent is not a factor.
Under the WSR there are situations where intent is a factor. Intentionally miscuing is unsportsmanlike conduct, for example. So is intentionally touching the cue ball with the side of your stick. Intent is hard to judge sometimes.