Strategy question

[skipbales]

The game is 8 ball. I have ended up on both ends of this situation in the past. So far it has been a contest where someone has ball in hand. Let's say it is the 14 ball player. That often is the result of either the 14 ball player shooting everything else in or the 8 ball player intentionally fouling by shooting the stripes in to force this situation.

The common strategy with ball in hand for the stripes is to put the cue ball behind the 14 and bump it to create separation. It is the same thing in reverse for the 8 ball player if he gets first shot at it. The hope is to get ball in hand, put the cue ball between the 8 and 14 on the next shot, then shoot one ball one way and the 8 the other, or for the 8 ball player, just the 8. The defense for this seems to be for the 8 ball player to use a bad hit to push the 14 back up to the 8 to prevent this. It then becomes a contest to see who can keep this up until the 8 ball either goes in the pocket by accident, costing the stripes player to lose, or one of the balls is right in front of the pocket and it is not possible to hit the other one any longer without pushing the opponent's ball into the pocket so the player does a long rail kick. The outcome than depends on the result of that attempt. It can go either way.

I am not sure if I mixed things up in my description. It can also be the 14 ball that ends up in front of the pocket. It all depends on who starts things. One player is making a good hit each time trying for separation. The other player is making a bad hit to close the gap and giving up ball in hand each time. The ball in hand player doesn't HAVE to keep this up but they never seem to think of anything better to do.

What I am wondering is if there is a better ball in hand strategy for whoever has the first attempt. I am thinking of things like setting up an angle to bank whichever ball I have (8 or 14) away from the rail and leave the opponent a long shot to a frozen ball with no chance to cut it. this would force a return safety or a difficult bank. Let's say I am shooting the 8 and get first chance at this with ball in hand. My goal (I assume) could be to bank the 8 out somewhere it would be very hard to safety back and leave the cue ball at the other end of the table with no angle for a cut shot.

This is not incredibly common but it does happen from time to time. Someone mut have a great escape shot here.

 

[straightline]

linky on blinky

 

[skipbales]

linky on blinky

linky on blinky

Fixed, I think.

 

[straightline]

Perfectly clear now thanks. You could bank the 14 out into the open and stick the cue ball on the opposite end rail either where no likely bank on the 8 exists or even with a rehearsed hook. Just read that that's your solution - oops. I like that option better than nitting around in close proximity. Either way could backfire or vice versa but I think distance will force more errors.

 

[chefjeff]

Use follow on the soft combo so the cueball sticks to the 14. This makes it even harder for the opponent to get a good hit. A little angle can make it even tougher for him.

We call it "the Jerome shot" for the guy who told us about it long ago.


Jeff Livingston

 

[skipbales]

Perfectly clear now thanks. You could bank the 14 out into the open and stick the cue ball on the opposite end rail either where no likely bank on the 8 exists or even with a rehearsed hook. Just read that that's your solution - oops. I like that option better than nitting around in close proximity. Either way could backfire or vice versa but I think distance will force more errors.

I plan to experiment with that a little to see how it works out. I am hoping someone has a specific set up and angle to help make it predictable. I would be starting from scratch on even where to place the cue ball to make it easiset.

 

[skipbales]

Use follow on the soft combo so the cueball sticks to the 14. This makes it even harder for the opponent to get a good hit. A little angle can make it even tougher for him.

We call it "the Jerome shot" for the guy who told us about it long ago.


Jeff Livingston

Those are good suggestions. I like the angle best and am experimenting with that one. As for the follow, since the next hit will be a bad hit either way they don't have to worry much about a push or double hit but it seems like it might be harder to judge if they were frozen. Thanks for the tips.

 

[chefjeff]

Those are good suggestions. I like the angle best and am experimenting with that one. As for the follow, since the next hit will be a bad hit either way they don't have to worry much about a push or double hit but it seems like it might be harder to judge if they were frozen. Thanks for the tips.

Thanks to my late friend and mentor, Jerome. He gave me lessons way back and I played league with him for years. He used to teach pool at Iowa St U and was lucky enough to get to play Willie Mosconi in an exhibition match. He ran 30 something on Willie and Willie gave him the speech: Hey kid, this is MY show...

He passed away a year or two ago.


Jeff Livingston

 

[straightline]

I plan to experiment with that a little to see how it works out. I am hoping someone has a specific set up and angle to help make it predictable. I would be starting from scratch on even where to place the cue ball to make it easiset.

Just off the top of my head, I'd start by coming across the 14 from the 8 ball side and zig zagging to the other end. You'd have to experiment with what kind of play you get out of the 14 and the shot dynamics as well.

 

[PoolHallPaul]

Just off the top of my head, I'd start by coming across the 14 from the 8 ball side and zig zagging to the other end. You'd have to experiment with what kind of play you get out of the 14 and the shot dynamics as well.

I like shooting soft enough to thin ob and stick to it and then if u get bih separate them enough to get cb between them. U can not bank 14 without moving the 8. If u leave cb stuck to your ball your opponent can not put balls back together.

 

[David in FL]

Either way, you end up in some form of safety battle.

sorry, but I’m probably going to stick with the original option that keeps giving me ball in hand. Ultimately, that gives me the edge to control the end game better than him...

I am interested to see if somebody convinces me otherwise…

 

[Bob Jewett]

If you are shooting the 14 with ball in hand, you could bump the 8 away from the 14 but try to leave the cue ball/14 not in line so it's not possible for your opponent to freeze the 14 back on the 8 with a foul.

 

[straightline]

I like shooting soft enough to thin ob and stick to it and then if u get bih separate them enough to get cb between them. U can not bank 14 without moving the 8. If u leave cb stuck to your ball your opponent can not put balls back together.

This is sensible. The OP was looking for an alternative to that initial nurse play, hence opening with the bank. And, if you come across the 14 from the 8 ball side, the 14 is clear to go straight up table or to the side cushion and out. The cue ball can easily be manipulated to zig zag and land on the opposite end rail. As you get familiar with this tactic you can work on controlling both the 14 and the cue ball. Gathering the two on the other end of the table could work well

 

[skipbales]

I tried this and liked it but found one that ends up even better although probably less reliable. Instead of thin angle and zig zag the cue ball I did a straight into the rail from 45 degrees. The cue ball goes straight up the table (no zig zag) and the 8 ball goes off to the side rail about a diamond up from the pocket. It is kind of a double kiss. There is no possible cut left this way and the 8 is near a pocket. The downside is there is a relatively easy safety to leave a bank shot

The other way the 8 is in the center of the table and very hard to safety but the cue is more off to one side leaving a very difficult but possible cut shot.

I am going to experiment with both. I like the cue ball resting place for the 45 degree shot but like the 8 ball resting place for the thinner hit. It might also be good to leave that cut shot as it is quite hard for people who haven't practiced it and it might tempt some players. I used to practice it as a trick shot with the object ball on the rail and cue ball on the spot. I can cut it to either corner left or right, pretty consistently. It takes a lot of spin and you have to aim for an almost full hit for that one. But with even a little angle it is pretty makeable. I think most of the players I play could not make it and most would not think to attempt it but I am not sure.

 

[skipbales]

If you are shooting the 14 with ball in hand, you could bump the 8 away from the 14 but try to leave the cue ball/14 not in line so it's not possible for your opponent to freeze the 14 back on the 8 with a foul.

This sounds doable. I am going to experiment with it. I was about to try that in a match of Scotch Doubles but my playing partner looked like he was going to have a heart attack. So I just did the simple bump.

To be sure I understand, Bob, I hit the 14 with a slight angle instead of straight behind it. That pushes the 8 away and leaves the 14 blocking the shot on the 8 but creates a small angle so the other player can't easily push the 14 back up against the 8. Are you thinking putting the cue ball on the rail and shooting out at a small angle or the other way around? Putting the cue ball slightly off the rail and shooting into the 14.

 

[Bob Jewett]

This sounds doable. I am going to experiment with it. I was about to try that in a match of Scotch Doubles but my playing partner looked like he was going to have a heart attack. So I just did the simple bump.

To be sure I understand, Bob, I hit the 14 with a slight angle instead of straight behind it. That pushes the 8 away and leaves the 14 blocking the shot on the 8 but creates a small angle so the other player can't easily push the 14 back up against the 8. Are you thinking putting the cue ball on the rail and shooting out at a small angle or the other way around? Putting the cue ball slightly off the rail and shooting into the 14.

Exactly how you place the cue ball depends on how the object balls are sitting. It helps if you have played straight rail.

 

[straightline]

I tried this and liked it but found one that ends up even better although probably less reliable. Instead of thin angle and zig zag the cue ball I did a straight into the rail from 45 degrees. The cue ball goes straight up the table (no zig zag) and the 8 ball goes off to the side rail about a diamond up from the pocket. It is kind of a double kiss. There is no possible cut left this way and the 8 is near a pocket. The downside is there is a relatively easy safety to leave a bank shot

The other way the 8 is in the center of the table and very hard to safety but the cue is more off to one side leaving a very difficult but possible cut shot.

I am going to experiment with both. I like the cue ball resting place for the 45 degree shot but like the 8 ball resting place for the thinner hit. It might also be good to leave that cut shot as it is quite hard for people who haven't practiced it and it might tempt some players. I used to practice it as a trick shot with the object ball on the rail and cue ball on the spot. I can cut it to either corner left or right, pretty consistently. It takes a lot of spin and you have to aim for an almost full hit for that one. But with even a little angle it is pretty makeable. I think most of the players I play could not make it and most would not think to attempt it but I am not sure.

Not sure if you are referring to the 14 ball but I tried the zigzag on a very fast 7 footer and on that table you can come across the 14 thin and the kiss will make the angle. In fact I even had to use a TOI lol to keep the zag in check for the side rail. I got a gather hook at the far end twice in about 20 tries but killing whitey was fairly consistent once I figured the dynamics with inside english.

 

[skipbales]

Not sure if you are referring to the 14 ball but I tried the zigzag on a very fast 7 footer and on that table you can come across the 14 thin and the kiss will make the angle. In fact I even had to use a TOI lol to keep the zag in check for the side rail. I got a gather hook at the far end twice in about 20 tries but killing whitey was fairly consistent once I figured the dynamics with inside english.

It worked well for me but ended up off to one side on the end rail. If the 14 was in the middle at the other end it left a thin along the rail cut. I could not get the cue ball to the center of the end rail. I will try the inside spin.

 

[straightline]

It worked well for me but ended up off to one side on the end rail. If the 14 was in the middle at the other end it left a thin along the rail cut. I could not get the cue ball to the center of the end rail. I will try the inside spin.

I think try is the operative word. Thanks for posing the problem. I won't have 9 footers until the all clear so I couldn't tell you what happens but so far if you're getting a kiss, that's what the inside is for.
Ending up off center seems to be built into the shot. If you're looking for a coup de gras, you'll always leave a response. Bob Jewett's shot for instance; a standard masse around the 14. Or kicks, cuts, and banks with the long way separation. Depends how you have prioritized this one situation/game.