Stroke Timing & Back To Basics

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Of late I seem to have picked up some bad habits. So much so that it seems to have completely altered my stroke. So when I got a call from my old intructor today saying he was in my neck of the woods and wanted to knock a few balls in on the snooker table I jumped at the chance.

Long story short he picked up on 3 key things that had gone astray;
Timing of my stroke
Thought process
Grip + wrist

The timing of my stroke was something I was aware of completely but never did anything about it. I'd lost the 'pause phase' in my stroke which before was at the CB then a longer pause at the end of my backstroke. Lately its been non existent and I had forgot the benefit of having a pause. It helps massively with the timing, so applying spin, up, down, left and right becomes easier because it forces you to accelerate through the CB. Secondly he noticed these "big old back swings" as he put it. Feathering the CB should be just that he said; soft and gentle to ensure you are lining up on the CB where you want. With bigger back strokes the tip goes away from the CB so you get less time looking at where its lined up on the ball.

Thought process - this was something I wasn't aware of at all. Its a result of playing lots of pool and not enough snooker. I was thinking and planning ahead like a 9 ball player would and regularly went all around the snooker table to gain position on either baulk colours or blue, and even the pink at one stage. Even though I could do it, he couldn't emphasise enough trying to limit CB movement. He said if I run out of posistion then settle for the colour that involves the least CB movement and ensure you get good on that, and then get back into shape from there. Points difference between yellow and pink is 4 points, so it won't lose you the frame settling for the yellow but trying to go 4 or 5 cushions will. Something that in pool, especially rotation is a must sometimes and 3 rails positional shots are the norm. I think this can transfer into my pool game too. Make sure I get the right angle with limited CB travel than trying to go all Efren on the layout. Take a longer shot with the right angle than getting closer and not having the right angle.

Grip + wrist - I've adopted a a rather "wristy" back hand because of having to juice the CB in pool. But because of bringing the pause and bettering the timing of my stroke I shouldn't need to have a lot of wrist movement. I went back to a snooker style grip with my wrist cocked towards the CB. Very much like the 'hammer' CJ employs. It felt more comfortable since I've used this for 10+ years in snooker so it wasn't an effort to go back to it.

I couldn't wait to try this out oat home on my table so as soon as I got in I took on the 10 ball ghost. Ghost didn't stand a chance. I won 15-2. Not dealt that kind of punishment out in a while. So yeah, I thought I'd post my days events in the hope it helps a player or two out.
 
Pidge...One of the most essential benefits of pausing with your tip very near the CB, is to allow the subconscious to "decide" if you're going to strike the CB on the next swing...or not. For most of us, this pause needs to be at least 1/2 second, to give the brain enough time to evaluate the visual information being relayed through the eyes. A second benefit to this is again allowing the subconscious enough time to 'recognize' whether you've done your process the exact same way you've trained yourself to. Your instructor noticed right away that you had either changed or forgotten some significant elements of what gave you a consistent, accurate set up and delivery process. This is one of the greatest benefits of hands-on instruction...as opposed to trying to "do it yourself". Reaffirming those things brings them initially back into the conscious realm of thinking, where, with a little dedicated practice, they can return to the subconscious area of high performance under pressure. The pause at the backswing is necessary and conducive to a smooth transition to the forward accelerated stroke. How long that pause should be is simply a matter of comfort. Some players, like Buddy, will have a very extended pause (2-3 seconds) at the end of the backswing. Others, like myself, will have a very short pause (.2-.5 seconds). It's all about maintaining a relaxed grip on the cue, and getting the timing of the whole process down perfectly (individual to the person). Nice job beating the ghost! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
Pidge...One of the most essential benefits of pausing with your tip very near the CB, is to allow the subconscious to "decide" if you're going to strike the CB on the next swing...or not. A second benefit to this is again allowing the subconscious enough time to 'recognize' whether you've done your process the exact same way you've trained yourself to. Your instructor noticed right away that you had either changed or forgotten some significant elements of what gave you a consistent, accurate set up and delivery process. This is one of the greatest benefits of hands-on instruction...as opposed to trying to "do it yourself". Reaffirming those things brings them initially back into the conscious realm of thinking, where, with a little dedicated practice, they can return to the subconscious area of high performance under pressure. The pause at the backswing is necessary and conducive to a smooth transition to the forward accelerated stroke. How long that pause should be is simply a matter of comfort. Some players, like Buddy, will have a very extended pause (2-3 seconds) at the end of the backswing. Others, like myself, will have a very short pause (.2-.5 seconds). It's all about maintaining a relaxed grip on the cue, and getting the timing of the whole process down perfectly (individual to the person). Nice job beating the ghost! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

IMO it is not subconscious because we cannot order it to do anything. I think the main reason to pause is to allow one to bring tip near CB and ensure where tip is going to strike CB.
 
Pidge...One of the most essential benefits of pausing with your tip very near the CB, is to allow the subconscious to "decide" if you're going to strike the CB on the next swing...or not. For most of us, this pause needs to be at least 1/2 second, to give the brain enough time to evaluate the visual information being relayed through the eyes. A second benefit to this is again allowing the subconscious enough time to 'recognize' whether you've done your process the exact same way you've trained yourself to. Your instructor noticed right away that you had either changed or forgotten some significant elements of what gave you a consistent, accurate set up and delivery process. This is one of the greatest benefits of hands-on instruction...as opposed to trying to "do it yourself". Reaffirming those things brings them initially back into the conscious realm of thinking, where, with a little dedicated practice, they can return to the subconscious area of high performance under pressure. The pause at the backswing is necessary and conducive to a smooth transition to the forward accelerated stroke. How long that pause should be is simply a matter of comfort. Some players, like Buddy, will have a very extended pause (2-3 seconds) at the end of the backswing. Others, like myself, will have a very short pause (.2-.5 seconds). It's all about maintaining a relaxed grip on the cue, and getting the timing of the whole process down perfectly (individual to the person). Nice job beating the ghost! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Cheers Scott. One thing that I noticed with the pause and maybe its a timing element I use is the finger tap with the middle finger. Haven't had one that I know of when the bad habits crept back in. My little finger also raises off the table on the back stroke when I pull back slowly then it plants back down during the pause and my pause lasts for '2 middle finger taps' lol. Not a realiable method of timing I know, but whilst paying attention its the same every time - tap my middle finger twice on the table when paused then accelerate through.

Any idea why people do tap their fingers on the table or why my little finger raises? I see 90% of experienced snooker players doing it and have always thought of it as a way to release tension in the bridge.
 
Cheers Scott. One thing that I noticed with the pause and maybe its a timing element I use is the finger tap with the middle finger. Haven't had one that I know of when the bad habits crept back in. My little finger also raises off the table on the back stroke when I pull back slowly then it plants back down during the pause and my pause lasts for '2 middle finger taps' lol. Not a realiable method of timing I know, but whilst paying attention its the same every time - tap my middle finger twice on the table when paused then accelerate through.

Any idea why people do tap their fingers on the table or why my little finger raises? I see 90% of experienced snooker players doing it and have always thought of it as a way to release tension in the bridge.

Probably cadence, Pidge. Most players have a cadence to their PSR, feathering the cue ball (termed "practice strokes" in pool), stop - pull back - fire. It's all a timed motion. When you introduce something that doesn't conform to the cadence -- such as a slow pull pack, and then a pause, you lose your natural cadence. The bridge hand's middle (or ring) finger "tap" on the table "keeps that cadence going."

I used to ask myself this often -- why do I do that? (And, why do some pros do that?) I thought it was a nervous tick or something along those lines.

Then after I'd been listening to music one day, I was involved in some rather drab household chores. I noticed I was using a rag according to a cadence, and when I wasn't wiping, I found my hand along the side of my leg, gently tapping out a cadence. I'm a musician, so I recognized what was happening -- it's just my natural way of keeping some sort of timepiece or cadence going in my activity.

Just some thoughts as to why it happens. Oh, and congrats on having another fruitful session with your instructor -- especially capping with a thorough thrashing of the ghost!

Congrats on your 138 in 14.1, btw. (Yes, someone noticed. ;) )

-Sean
 
While what you say is true, this proves why you're not an instructor. FYI, the 'subconscious' realm is where "deadstroke", "in the zone", or what we call "autopilot" comes from. :rolleyes: :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

IMO it is not subconscious because we cannot order it to do anything. I think the main reason to pause is to allow one to bring tip near CB and ensure where tip is going to strike CB.
 
Great post Sean. One thing to understand is that we all have our own 'natural' sense of cadence, rhythm, and timing. We teach people how to "find" theirs, and incorporate it into their personal process. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Probably cadence, Pidge. Most players have a cadence to their PSR, feathering the cue ball (termed "practice strokes" in pool), stop - pull back - fire. It's all a timed motion. When you introduce something that doesn't conform to the cadence -- such as a slow pull pack, and then a pause, you lose your natural cadence. The bridge hand's middle (or ring) finger "tap" on the table "keeps that cadence going."

I used to ask myself this often -- why do I do that? (And, why do some pros do that?) I thought it was a nervous tick or something along those lines.

Then after I'd been listening to music one day, I was involved in some rather drab household chores. I noticed I was using a rag according to a cadence, and when I wasn't wiping, I found my hand along the side of my leg, gently tapping out a cadence. I'm a musician, so I recognized what was happening -- it's just my natural way of keeping some sort of timepiece or cadence going in my activity.

Just some thoughts as to why it happens. Oh, and congrats on having another fruitful session with your instructor -- especially capping with a thorough thrashing of the ghost!

Congrats on your 138 in 14.1, btw. (Yes, someone noticed. ;) )

-Sean
 
Probably cadence, Pidge. Most players have a cadence to their PSR, feathering the cue ball (termed "practice strokes" in pool), stop - pull back - fire. It's all a timed motion. When you introduce something that doesn't conform to the cadence -- such as a slow pull pack, and then a pause, you lose your natural cadence. The bridge hand's middle (or ring) finger "tap" on the table "keeps that cadence going."

I used to ask myself this often -- why do I do that? (And, why do some pros do that?) I thought it was a nervous tick or something along those lines.

Then after I'd been listening to music one day, I was involved in some rather drab household chores. I noticed I was using a rag according to a cadence, and when I wasn't wiping, I found my hand along the side of my leg, gently tapping out a cadence. I'm a musician, so I recognized what was happening -- it's just my natural way of keeping some sort of timepiece or cadence going in my activity.

Just some thoughts as to why it happens. Oh, and congrats on having another fruitful session with your instructor -- especially capping with a thorough thrashing of the ghost!

Congrats on your 138 in 14.1, btw. (Yes, someone noticed. ;) )

-Sean
Ha cheers Sean :)

It seems you are spot on. I've tried fighting the finger taps in the past only for it to throw me off my cadence. It happens too on a grander scale. I have a rhythm to my play and how long I take over shots and I think the reason I miss easy shots is because I know they're easy so I just get down and don't conform to my cadence. Same for toughies. I take longer working the situation out where if I just followed my natural speed and rhythm I'd likely make it.
 
Cheers Scott. One thing that I noticed with the pause and maybe its a timing element I use is the finger tap with the middle finger. Haven't had one that I know of when the bad habits crept back in. My little finger also raises off the table on the back stroke when I pull back slowly then it plants back down during the pause and my pause lasts for '2 middle finger taps' lol. Not a realiable method of timing I know, but whilst paying attention its the same every time - tap my middle finger twice on the table when paused then accelerate through.

Any idea why people do tap their fingers on the table or why my little finger raises? I see 90% of experienced snooker players doing it and have always thought of it as a way to release tension in the bridge.

I hadn't realise I had gone all Tony Meo until I videoed myself.
 
This is why it's so important to actually know what your personal cadence and timing is about. If you have incorporated that well into your shooting PSR, it allows you to do your "thing"...stop at the CB...and repeat as necessary, until you pull the trigger. Most of the time, on most SOP shots, we will do our process once, and pull the trigger. It's an advantage to be able to repeat the same process, on XOP shots, to stay in the mental/emotional "moment" of the shot, but not actually shoot until you're 'ready'! Many players (even experts) have no idea of what they actually do...therefore making it easier to be inconsistent in their process, which is a recipe for making errors.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Ha cheers Sean :)

It seems you are spot on. I've tried fighting the finger taps in the past only for it to throw me off my cadence. It happens too on a grander scale. I have a rhythm to my play and how long I take over shots and I think the reason I miss easy shots is because I know they're easy so I just get down and don't conform to my cadence. Same for toughies. I take longer working the situation out where if I just followed my natural speed and rhythm I'd likely make it.
 
While what you say is true, this proves why you're not an instructor. FYI, the 'subconscious' realm is where "deadstroke", "in the zone", or what we call "autopilot" comes from. :rolleyes: :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

True I am not an instructor, but i question everything until it makes perfect sense to me. Many pool players & instructors repeat these terms "subconscious" "in the zone", "autopilot" because they have not gotten to a level to understand how to master the game or know perfect pool; once a player reaches mastery level, they eliminate these terms from their Vocabulary. :(:sorry:
 
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...if you say so! :rolleyes: You just don't know what you dont' know! LOL :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Many pool players & instructors repeat these terms "subconscious" "in the zone", "autopilot" because they have not gotten to a level to understand how to master the game or know perfect pool; once a player reaches mastery level, they eliminate these terms from their Vocabulary. :(:sorry:
 
So Pidge is actually a great player, huh? I always just thought you were pretty knowledgeable about things.

In any case, great thread and great responses by Scott and Sean.
 
J-Flo...Nah, I haven't forgotten much yet, because instructors have the highest rate of retention, due to constant repetition & demonstration. BTW...when are you going to take the plunge into the PBIA? :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, you have probly forgot more about pool than most will ever know. Always good to read your post.
 
J-Flo...Nah, I haven't forgotten much yet, because instructors have the highest rate of retention, due to constant repetition & demonstration. BTW...when are you going to take the plunge into the PBIA? :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Just waiting for the winter lay off. Going to call Randy this week to see what he has open in November.
 
...if you say so! :rolleyes: You just don't know what you dont' know! LOL :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Please do not take it personally, what i was trying to say, if a human cannot repeat a successful repeatable performance every time, then that person flat out got lucky, or all balls are in right places, easy run out, his opponent slips..etc . Simply put, that person does not have all the knowledge & experience to do it again. Look at SVB, or other pros, they are able to repeat success with minimal effect to "in the zone", "subconscious" because they reach mastery level, they know what they are doing, work extremely hard for it "all their life", their prediction of where CB is going is far better than any regular not top pro style, those pros reach a level where they know why they miss a shot (if they miss) with very high accuracy, their pattern play is second nature.

Again sorry.
 
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Remember not all people process information the same. We all have outside influences that mold how we think and affect how we see. In the end, success is measured by the number of people that have received, digested and adapted the playing tips that can be found on this site to improve their game.
" There is no limit to what you can achieve with the support of fellow enthusiasts."
 
Remember not all people process information the same. We all have outside influences that mold how we think and affect how we see. In the end, success is measured by the number of people that have received, digested and adapted the playing tips that can be found on this site to improve their game.
" There is no limit to what you can achieve with the support of fellow enthusiasts."

I agree, we go to school, college to learn from others, i do not see any difference in pool. The only issue with pool, it is extremely hard game multiple variables that are interacted together hard to separate. In real life we have a measure for success, you get a PHD you become a professor, in pool world it is a bit tricky, sure many instructors and recommend all of them, are great guidance, and it is left to the student to excel, and it goes without saying, if they do not give it hard time and full dedication, they will fall short of the top marks.
 
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