Stroketrainer Review

[Steve Ellis]

Who am I.

I'm the Steve Ellis who's post Doug started this thread with. I just wanted to say that though I lurk here regularly I never post. I posted the original message over on rec.sport.billiard where I post regularly and would like to think I have some credibility. I didn't post here or elsewhere because most of you don't know me from a hole in the wall.
I'm just posting now so that you'll all know that Doug didn't just make up a message from a non-existent person. I'm real, and I really do like my stroke trainer, no matter how much my wife and sons make fun of it's name.

 

[LastTwo]

All I'm saying is that if all the pros drop their elbows, so should you.

 

[fast larry]

All I'm saying is that if all the pros drop their elbows, so should you.

My position on this is not really understood unless you take my entire lesson course and get the big picture. On most normal shots, I want full accuracy, to achieve this, I want to be locked down, in real tight, the cue rubbing on my tit, me down low on the stick.
On some shots I do not drop my elbow.

When I need to juice the ball, grip it and rip it, I get more up right, let the cue hang more off to the side and I drop the hell out of my elbow to produce that shot. I think both methods should be used. I actually use three,

(1) hold the elbow in place, the tip must fall through the ball into the cloth, as the BCA teaches. There is a place for that shot.

(2) I drive the shaft through the ball keeping it parallel to the bed to impact and a foot beyond, this requires a manipulation of the stroke. The shaft never drops down, this is a learned move that requires much practice to master, but all the masters did this such as Hoppe, Mosconi and Greenleaf and most of the hall of fame.

(3) Drop the elbow and the knuckles down to the cloth and sometimes on the cloth, this causes the stroke to rise through the impact and ball creating nice over spin running.

All three can be perfected using the stroke trainer. I am two days into using mine and I can tell you guys right now, this is the greatest thing since the invention of whiskey or loose women. This thing turns you into a machine, a robot that can't miss. I am stunned by what's it is doing to me and my game.
I thought it was my eyes that was causing me to miss all those shots, it was my stroke, it got sloppy. I was putting little twists and curves on the cue ball at impact because of my faulty stroke. The cue ball was simply not arriving at where I was aiming at. I was aligned right, aiming right, but missing and did not have a clue why. Once this thing locked it all back down tight, the old feeling I once had came back and bingo so did my AA game.

Balls are flying in the dead center of pockets from all over the table and I'm playing again like it is 196l and I am in total dead punch and know there is not a shot on earth I can't make. It's power, it's a drug, an aphrodisiac, being in such total command of what you are doing. This is one of those things when you find it, it is so big, you don't want any one else to know about it. I bet a lot of people are not happy about me singing like a canary on this puppy.
May God bless and peace be with you. May the wind be always on your back and all 9 balls fall. VENI VIDI VICI, OMNIA VINCIT AMOR. Latin for “I came, I saw, I conquered, love conquerors all.
“Fast Larry” Guninger

 

[dmgwalsh]

(1) hold the elbow in place, the tip must fall through the ball into the cloth, as the BCA teaches.

That's the way Scott Lee is teaching me.
This is what I am working on with the stroketrainer. I also have a mirror set up so I can see whether the elbow drops or not. I didn't have the mirror for a few months using th ST and I was still dropping the elbow without knowing.

Your other strokes sound interesting, but I figure i better try to get the basic one down before I try to develop others. Dennis

 

[fast larry]

(1) hold the elbow in place, the tip must fall through the ball into the cloth, as the BCA teaches.

That's the way Scott Lee is teaching me.
This is what I am working on with the stroketrainer. I also have a mirror set up so I can see whether the elbow drops or not. I didn't have the mirror for a few months using th ST and I was still dropping the elbow without knowing.

Your other strokes sound interesting, but I figure i better try to get the basic one down before I try to develop others. Dennis

This is the disagreement Lee and I have, he acts like if you drop your elbow you will go to pool hell and burn in a fiery pit of molten camel dung. Me, my position is, if you really want to learn how to play, don't worry about it. If it drops, it drops no big friggin thing. Watch all the top men pro's, they do it, so who do you think is right here.

This is why I resigned from the BCA teaching school. I refused to go out and teach a flawed method I knew was dead ass wrong.

As you have found both methods can be practiced with the trainer. Since your obsessed with the Lee method and don't want to burn in hell for blasphemy for violating some rule of teaching some turkey wrote in a book, use your mirror, watch your elbow, keep thinking about it and you wont ever run 3 friggin balls. You don’t need a mirror, lose your mirror.

For the rest of you, this guy is using the device wrong. What the trainer does is it frees you from this. Once it grooves your stroke, you don't have to think about any thing in your swing. You can just go play with an empty head. Practice the trainer with your eyes closed on some of your sessions. You don't want to see what you’re doing; you want to feel what you are doing. This is a feel game, you must play it by feel. The Lee guy is being taught by a mechanical teacher who teaches you to perform mechanical. This is not the path to take. He is being taught to become a ball skidder hitting down into the ball producing a slide or back skid.
I teach the exact opposite of this, I teach the student to become a pure ball rollers and learn the joy of applying natural over spin running English on balls like the golfer does on a putt. This can only be done by dropping the elbow. No golfer chops down and skids a putt.

This device will have you in dead punch so quick it will make your head spin. There is no greater joy than being in total dead stroke and the stroke trainer produces this. It put me in total pure dead stroke in 2 sessions, 200 strokes

 

[fast larry]

$300 sounds like a Purdy good deal
sorry Don, I couldn't help myself

It's not $300, it's $175. Ask your self one simple question, would you pay $175 to get into total dead stroke. How serious are you about your game or about winning?

 

[dmgwalsh]

This is the disagreement Lee and I have, he acts like if you drop your elbow you will go to pool hell and burn in a fiery pit of molten camel dung. Me, my position is, if you really want to learn how to play, don't worry about it. If it drops, it drops no big friggin thing. Watch all the top men pro's, they do it, so who do you think is right here.

This is why I resigned from the BCA teaching school. I refused to go out and teach a flawed method I knew was dead ass wrong.

As you have found both methods can be practiced with the trainer. Since your obsessed with the Lee method and don't want to burn in hell for blasphemy for violating some rule of teaching some turkey wrote in a book, use your mirror, watch your elbow, keep thinking about it and you wont ever run 3 friggin balls. You don’t need a mirror, lose your mirror.

For the rest of you, this guy is using the device wrong. What the trainer does is it frees you from this. Once it grooves your stroke, you don't have to think about any thing in your swing. You can just go play with an empty head. Practice the trainer with your eyes closed on some of your sessions. You don't want to see what you’re doing; you want to feel what you are doing. This is a feel game, you must play it by feel. The Lee guy is being taught by a mechanical teacher who teaches you to perform mechanical. This is not the path to take. He is being taught to become a ball skidder hitting down into the ball producing a slide or back skid.
I teach the exact opposite of this, I teach the student to become a pure ball rollers and learn the joy of applying natural over spin running English on balls like the golfer does on a putt. This can only be done by dropping the elbow. No golfer chops down and skids a putt.

Nice reply,FL. I guess we get it that you don't like keeping the elbow from dropping. 'Nuff said.

So when your earlier post said,

"My position on this is not really understood unless you take my entire lesson course and get the big picture. On most normal shots, I want full accuracy, to achieve this, I want to be locked down, in real tight, the cue rubbing on my tit, me down low on the stick.

'Most of these shots I do not drop my elbow. ' and

I think both methods should be used. I actually use three, (1) hold the elbow in place, the tip must fall through the ball into the cloth, as the BCA teaches. (2) I drive the shaft through the ball keeping it parallel to the bed to impact and a foot beyond, this requires a manipulation of the stroke. (3) Drop the elbow and the knuckles down to the cloth and sometimes on the cloth, this causes the stroke to rise through the impact and ball creating nice over spin running. ",

One could easily be misled into thinking that you actually meant what you said and that sometimes you did use the method in which the elbow did not drop.

I guess I shouldn't expect your posts to be consistent or logical and should stop trying to make sense out them. When I said I wanted to learn one stroke well before I move on to others, I guess that is anathema to the FL system. Thanks for the insight, but i think I'll stick with Scott's instruction for now. Dennis

 

[fast larry]

Nice reply,FL. I guess we get it that you don't like keeping the elbow from dropping. 'Nuff said.

So when your earlier post said,

"My position on this is not really understood unless you take my entire lesson course and get the big picture. On most normal shots, I want full accuracy, to achieve this, I want to be locked down, in real tight, the cue rubbing on my tit, me down low on the stick.

'Most of these shots I do not drop my elbow. ' and

I think both methods should be used. I actually use three, (1) hold the elbow in place, the tip must fall through the ball into the cloth, as the BCA teaches. (2) I drive the shaft through the ball keeping it parallel to the bed to impact and a foot beyond, this requires a manipulation of the stroke. (3) Drop the elbow and the knuckles down to the cloth and sometimes on the cloth, this causes the stroke to rise through the impact and ball creating nice over spin running. ",

One could easily be misled into thinking that you actually meant what you said and that sometimes you did use the method in which the elbow did not drop.

I guess I shouldn't expect your posts to be consistent or logical and should stop trying to make sense out them. When I said I wanted to learn one stroke well before I move on to others, I guess that is anathema to the FL system. Thanks for the insight, but i think I'll stick with Scott's instruction for now. Dennis

Yes I totally agree with you, do stay with Scott, what I teach is obviously way over your ability to comprehend, it is too complicated for you. Some can only handle one stroke and could not conceive of having three. There are also people who cannot walk and talk at the same time either. Beginners should seek out beginner teachers. Those who seek finishing and the upper end of the game, seek me out.

 

[Gerald]

I've had a couple of lessons with Scott and they have definitely improved my game. When my game is off I immdiately check what is happening with my elbow. The main thing Fast Larry is that you are way too fast in denigrating someone else who dedicates his life to the game and helps others to improve. Anybody who is not in exact sync with your thoughts and ideas is immediately labeled as a crackpopt or worse and with venom in your in your written words. I am sorry about your physical problems but you carry way too much hate in many of your responses. I don't know what exactly it is that you do on top of the mountain when you are seeking inner peace and understanding but it is time that you find another mountain.

 

[Joseph Cues]

I've had a couple of lessons with Scott and they have definitely improved my game. When my game is off I immdiately check what is happening with my elbow. The main thing Fast Larry is that you are way too fast in denigrating someone else who dedicates his life to the game and helps others to improve. Anybody who is not in exact sync with your thoughts and ideas is immediately labeled as a crackpopt or worse and with venom in your in your written words. I am sorry about your physical problems but you carry way too much hate in many of your responses. I don't know what exactly it is that you do on top of the mountain when you are seeking inner peace and understanding but it is time that you find another mountain.

Maybe there's too much smog up there in the mountain FL goes to.
I wonder if FL hangs around the Colorado Rockies.

 

[henho]

The fact that Fast Larry advocates against not dropping the elbow but mentions that he uses such a stroke is not a contradiction. The point is to not to confine your stroke into a certain set of parameters regardless of the shot, but to use a natural stroke appropriate for the situation. On certain types of shots you may use one motion, on others a different motion is appropriate, as long as the stroke is always straight. If you are incapable of producing a straight stroke without dropping your elbow, then stick to that stroke. I believe that once you groove your stroke and begin shooting power shots that require a long followthrough straight throught the cueball, and are able to do so with a straight stroke, you will appreciate the fact that slight variations in stroke are neccessary for certain effects.

The point is not to drop your elbow or not drop your elbow, but to develop a straight, powerful, natural stroke that adapts to the situation, whether you are following through 3 inches of a foot.

 

[dmgwalsh]

The FL way or the highway

The fact that Fast Larry advocates against not dropping the elbow but mentions that he uses such a stroke is not a contradiction. The point is to not to confine your stroke into a certain set of parameters regardless of the shot, but to use a natural stroke appropriate for the situation. On certain types of shots you may use one motion, on others a different motion is appropriate, as long as the stroke is always straight. If you are incapable of producing a straight stroke without dropping your elbow, then stick to that stroke. I believe that once you groove your stroke and begin shooting power shots that require a long followthrough straight throught the cueball, and are able to do so with a straight stroke, you will appreciate the fact that slight variations in stroke are neccessary for certain effects.

The point is not to drop your elbow or not drop your elbow, but to develop a straight, powerful, natural stroke that adapts to the situation, whether you are following through 3 inches of a foot.

I understand that Larry and others use more than one stroke. I merely said that I would like to get the stroke down that my present teacher is teaching me before I start trying to develop other strokes. Apparently, that statement was enough to get FL to denigrate me, my teacher, the bca and everyone that does not jump on the FL bandwagon.

 

[fast larry]

Maybe there's too much smog up there in the mountain FL goes to.
I wonder if FL hangs around the Colorado Rockies.

Not too far away from where the movie Deliverance was made, in the NE Georgia mountains.

 

[dmgwalsh]

FL's School of ??

what I teach is obviously way over your ability to comprehend, it is too complicated for you. Some can only handle one stroke and could not conceive of having three. There are also people who cannot walk and talk at the same time either. Beginners should seek out beginner teachers. Those who seek finishing and the upper end of the game, seek me out.

FL, this thread started talking about the stroketrainer. One fellow said that we should drop the elbow cuz the pros do it. You replied to him that not dropping the elbow was one of three strokes that you teach. I replied that that was the stroke that I was trying to develop using the stroke trainer.

So far, everyone was learning and having a dialogue about the stroketrainer and different strokes. It was at that point, you blew a gasket, or something in your mind went haywire, and you decreed that if I was trying to learn the same stroke that you had indicated that you used, I couldn't run 3 balls, was using the stroketrainer in the wrong way, and apparently was too stupid to possibly comprehend the complicated pool lessons you have devised.

When someone doesn't agree with you, do you always call them stupid?
Are you always right? Were you right back when you said the stroketrainer was no good? Were people who disagreed with you then stupid? Are they still stupid, now that you like the stroketrainer?
Have you ever heard of a concept in teaching that you teach one skill at a time until it is mastered and then move on to other skills? Think about it a little bit before you answer.

Dennis

 

[fast larry]

The fact that Fast Larry advocates against not dropping the elbow but mentions that he uses such a stroke is not a contradiction. The point is to not to confine your stroke into a certain set of parameters regardless of the shot, but to use a natural stroke appropriate for the situation. On certain types of shots you may use one motion, on others a different motion is appropriate, as long as the stroke is always straight. If you are incapable of producing a straight stroke without dropping your elbow, then stick to that stroke. I believe that once you groove your stroke and begin shooting power shots that require a long followthrough straight throught the cueball, and are able to do so with a straight stroke, you will appreciate the fact that slight variations in stroke are neccessary for certain effects.

The point is not to drop your elbow or not drop your elbow, but to develop a straight, powerful, natural stroke that adapts to the situation, whether you are following through 3 inches of a foot.

Yo henho, dat's what I wuz sayin, only youse said it betta dan me. How about you start writtin my stuff fer me. Hot damn we could be one hell of a team, with my brain and your pen??????????????

 

[fast larry]

I understand that Larry and others use more than one stroke. I merely said that I would like to get the stroke down that my present teacher is teaching me before I start trying to develop other strokes. Apparently, that statement was enough to get FL to denigrate me, my teacher, the bca and everyone that does not jump on the FL bandwagon.

I'm sorry, it's not you, I should not have got on your case, that was not right. It's just every time I see these bozo's teaching this crap I go off and some poor guy like you gets caught in the middle of it. Defend your teacher, I respect that in you, good going, that was the proper thing to do, even if he's a bozo. Ooops, I promised I would never call him that again, even if he is simply mistaken, that sounds better.

 

[fast larry]

FL, this thread started talking about the stroketrainer. One fellow said that we should drop the elbow cuz the pros do it. You replied to him that not dropping the elbow was one of three strokes that you teach. I replied that that was the stroke that I was trying to develop using the stroke trainer.

So far, everyone was learning and having a dialogue about the stroketrainer and different strokes. It was at that point, you blew a gasket, or something in your mind went haywire, and you decreed that if I was trying to learn the same stroke that you had indicated that you used, I couldn't run 3 balls, was using the stroketrainer in the wrong way, and apparently was too stupid to possibly comprehend the complicated pool lessons you have devised.

When someone doesn't agree with you, do you always call them stupid?
Are you always right? Were you right back when you said the stroketrainer was no good? Were people who disagreed with you then stupid? Are they still stupid, now that you like the stroketrainer?
Have you ever heard of a concept in teaching that you teach one skill at a time until it is mastered and then move on to other skills? Think about it a little bit before you answer.

Dennis

I beg you to show me where I wrote and called you stupid, I did not. I only suggested that your problem could be do to the fact that you could not walk and chew gum at the same time. My wife Sarah has that same problem, and she is not stupid, just a little slow. She gets there, eventually.

Talk about not staying on the thread, here we are talking about the stroke trainer, now it's thou shall not drop thy elbow, now its going to be get Fast Larry, burn that heratic to the stake. How about we return to the subject, which is not me.

No you should not be working on mastering one thing at a time, you should be working on mastering all of the basics at the same time and seeing them as all working in one piece. Your mechanical teacher is teaching one mechnical piece at a time mechanically to you. I teach a feel game, that is felt and seen as one flowing unit.

He has you using the stroke trainer and looking over your shoulder into a mirror. I have my people using it with their eyes closed. That is the difference between your teacher and me. He is on the south pole of it all, I am on the north pole. You never isolate any one piece because all are in this flowing chain. It gets even much more complicated than that.

What I have, seriously a lot of people do not and can not understand, I am not for everyone. There is a place for beginner teachers teaching beginners and there is a place for a guy like me as well.

I am a scratch golfter, these teachings came to me from the very top golf teachers, Ballard and Lead, I am their student. It's the same in golf or Pool, a swing is a swing. You see it as one chain of bubbles, connected, stop and try to think about just one of them, they all burst and the chain falls apart. Ballard taught me any time you begin to think about any one of them, all natural rhythm and coordination is gone.

Ok, there is some Zen to this, I freely admit I am very deep into these teachings as well. This is what my book is about I am writing. There are a lot of people who now think I am crazy as a loon. When the book hits, all of this will be exlained in detail, some of these people will then come to two conclusions, I was right all along and they were the victims of buying false teachings. Two, I was the first person in history who saw pool was being taught all wrong and had the guts to stand up and yell it from the roof tops. I took on the establishement and the BCA. They beat me into the ground, but my books and DVD's later proved me right and after I was dead and gone, my name and reputation was restored. It will be 10 years before this occurs, 10 years from now, I will no longer be with you all but this will all come to pass. This will be my final gift to you, the player, to finally tell it like it is and teach the game right. Some of you will remember this post 10 years from now, those who do you will be able to count on one hand.

 

[LastTwo]

Go watch any great player, in fact, any pro out there, they drop their elbows, not once in a while, but nearly every shot. Their tips do not dive into the cloth, they go straight thru and over the CB . Watch Efren, Busta, Strickland, most any pro force-draw the CB, their tip doesnt even drag on the cloth, its above the cloth when they finish. Try that yourself, it's extremely hard to do, but thats what the pros do.