Surprised They Got Out of Town ALIVE!!

ridewiththewind

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
So, we have this kinda big deal 8-Ball tournament, (for our little area), this past weekend. 32 man field, race to 7, double elimination. There was also a Calcutta, which I was unfamiliar with. So, one of the local guys bids 350.00 for a Canadian guy to place in the top 4.

Fast-forward to Sunday evening. Both this guy and his buddy, who is also from Canada are in the finals for 1st place, and a pretty decent purse. Local guy stands to make some very nice money on the Calcutta, either way. Half way through the set, both guys decide, because their buddies, to just throw the set. They combine the first and second place prize monies, and split it between them....and screw everyone still involved in the Calcutta. As I have already stated, not too sure how the Calcutta is decided, but they are also entitled to a percentage of the Calcutta bets as well. They both grab their monies and split town for the border....pretty much leaving everyone else holding the bag. Apparently, they claimed that they needed to make the border before a certain time. The border crossing is open 24/7.

There are some pretty pissed-off people around here right now, and those fellas best not be showing their faces this side of the border anytime soon. Apparently, they have pulled this tactic here in this state at other tournaments, and are now banned from participating in them......as they are now banned to participate here.

I have heard of this practice being done before....but is this really ethical....and isn't it really just down-right stealing?! Is there a way to safe-guard from something like this happening again? The tournament director is just beside himself, as he has never had this happen before. He runs well-organized, and fair tournaments. Has anyone else run into this, and if so, how was it handled?

Lisa
 
I've said it before, players shouldn't be responsible for or have anything to do with calcuttas. Pool players aren't whores and shouldn't have to worry about the person making money off of thier backs.
 
There was a whole big thread months ago re: John Schmidt bailing on a match, and affecting the calcutta in that tournament. Lots of opinions back and forth on it.

I basically reached the opinion that a calcutta is gambling, pure and simple. And one takes risks when one gambles. If someone puts money on a complete stranger in a calcutta, that someone risks that other person behaving in an unexpected manner.
 
I'm either confused by your post or I you are leaving out some much needed details. When you say they threw the set, do you mean didn't play at all or one lost on purpose?

First, who was holding the money and how did these guys get it? That was the chance to avoid all the problems right there. Whoever was holding the money shouldn't have given it to them until the situation was resolved.

I'm guessing there was a first and second place finisher if they finished the set. The players that bought them would get the money just like any other time. Its strange that this guys let everyone know what they were doing instead of just keeping it to themselves. I guess not everyone is that smart. It seems like this only involves the 1st and 2nd place money. It sounds like the players got the money due to them for 1st and 2nd so the only question I see is how to split the money between the people that bought these two guys in the calcutta if the match wasn't played.

I think if they were going to split the money that is fine and they should have played the set to the best of their ability so that the calcutta could go on uninterrupted.
 
Lisa,

You're right, if a person buys you in the callcutta for $350, you are entitled to buying half of yourself for $175. The tournament money is always awarded to the player, and half the callcutta money as well. The other half of the callcutta money goes to the buyer. I feel bad for the guy who bought the Canadian, and I have seen this happen many times before.

From my experience, the callcutta money for first and second place is generally not too much different. So what is comes down to is that your buddy may have lost a few bucks, but you can't help the inevitable. The Canadians seem to have made a pact to split profits.

*******I'm not saying I agree with what they did AT ALL********

But...
I saw the same situation at our pool hall in which two roadies split the final match. One guy bought all of himself in the calcutta, the other bought half of himself. So by them splitting, the only person losing money was the guy who bought half of the roadie. This is exactly what happened at your tourney, except for the fact that they made SURE the guy got what he should have for the calcutta. They asked his permission and then just gave the guy what he would have won had his horse placed first. I think this was logical and gentleman-like. The two thought it was a waste to play eachother and wanted to leave, BUT they made sure to pay out the guy correctly.

Sorry if this post doesn't make much sense, but I'm basically aggreeing with you in that YES, they did the wrong thing. They screwed the guy, even if the difference in callcutta money was minimal.

I don't believe that banning them from the tournament or even the UNITED STATES is a rational decision, but if they do come back it should be made clear no splitting unless all parties agree!!!
 
supergreenman said:
I've said it before, players shouldn't be responsible for or have anything to do with calcuttas. Pool players aren't whores and shouldn't have to worry about the person making money off of thier backs.
Click to expand...

Well, I know there will not be another Calcutta, after this. The TD added the Calcutta because it was requested by most who were entered. And, my understanding is that both players took a 30% cut each on their Calcuttas.

As I have already stated, I really do not understand Calcuttas, but they do appear to 'muddy' the waters a bit. On the flip side, a little integrity on the part of the players in question would have been nice. Probably didn't even declare their winnings at the border....maybe a call to Canadian Customs is in order....I can get their full names easy enough.

Lisa
 
ridewiththewind said:
So, we have this kinda big deal 8-Ball tournament, (for our little area), this past weekend. 32 man field, race to 7, double elimination. There was also a Calcutta, which I was unfamiliar with. So, one of the local guys bids 350.00 for a Canadian guy to place in the top 4.

Fast-forward to Sunday evening. Both this guy and his buddy, who is also from Canada are in the finals for 1st place, and a pretty decent purse. Local guy stands to make some very nice money on the Calcutta, either way. Half way through the set, both guys decide, because their buddies, to just throw the set. They combine the first and second place prize monies, and split it between them....and screw everyone still involved in the Calcutta. As I have already stated, not too sure how the Calcutta is decided, but they are also entitled to a percentage of the Calcutta bets as well. They both grab their monies and split town for the border....pretty much leaving everyone else holding the bag. Apparently, they claimed that they needed to make the border before a certain time. The border crossing is open 24/7.

There are some pretty pissed-off people around here right now, and those fellas best not be showing their faces this side of the border anytime soon. Apparently, they have pulled this tactic here in this state at other tournaments, and are now banned from participating in them......as they are now banned to participate here.

I have heard of this practice being done before....but is this really ethical....and isn't it really just down-right stealing?! Is there a way to safe-guard from something like this happening again? The tournament director is just beside himself, as he has never had this happen before. He runs well-organized, and fair tournaments. Has anyone else run into this, and if so, how was it handled?

Lisa
Click to expand...

They threw the set or just stopped playing and agreed to a split?
 
If they wanted to split their share of winnings, all they had to do was make the agreement before the start of the set. Then, they play the set out for the people who have a share of calcutta riding on the outcome.
If they did not have time to sit and play for whatever reason, they could have agreed to split the money, lag or flip for the break, and the loser forfeits. That way there is a 1st and 2nd determined for the culcutta.
Kelly
 
ridewiththewind said:
Well, I know there will not be another Calcutta, after this. The TD added the Calcutta because it was requested by most who were entered. And, my understanding is that both players took a 30% cut each on their Calcuttas.

As I have already stated, I really do not understand Calcuttas, but they do appear to 'muddy' the waters a bit. On the flip side, a little integrity on the part of the players in question would have been nice. Probably didn't even declare their winnings at the border....maybe a call to Canadian Customs is in order....I can get their full names easy enough.

Lisa
Click to expand...


Lisa you don't understand Calcuttas as you admit. Just calm down.

We still dont know if they "threw the set" or just didnt play the set. If the latter, there was really nothing done wrong at all IMHO.

Dont be calling Customs for crying out loud. Cheesh.
 
No ...

ridewiththewind said:
So, we have this kinda big deal 8-Ball tournament, (for our little area), this past weekend. 32 man field, race to 7, double elimination. There was also a Calcutta, which I was unfamiliar with. So, one of the local guys bids 350.00 for a Canadian guy to place in the top 4.

Fast-forward to Sunday evening. Both this guy and his buddy, who is also from Canada are in the finals for 1st place, and a pretty decent purse. Local guy stands to make some very nice money on the Calcutta, either way. Half way through the set, both guys decide, because their buddies, to just throw the set. They combine the first and second place prize monies, and split it between them....and screw everyone still involved in the Calcutta. As I have already stated, not too sure how the Calcutta is decided, but they are also entitled to a percentage of the Calcutta bets as well. They both grab their monies and split town for the border....pretty much leaving everyone else holding the bag. Apparently, they claimed that they needed to make the border before a certain time. The border crossing is open 24/7.

There are some pretty pissed-off people around here right now, and those fellas best not be showing their faces this side of the border anytime soon. Apparently, they have pulled this tactic here in this state at other tournaments, and are now banned from participating in them......as they are now banned to participate here.

I have heard of this practice being done before....but is this really ethical....and isn't it really just down-right stealing?! Is there a way to safe-guard from something like this happening again? The tournament director is just beside himself, as he has never had this happen before. He runs well-organized, and fair tournaments. Has anyone else run into this, and if so, how was it handled?

Lisa
Click to expand...

It should not be done, especially with a Calcutta involved. If the tournament director was me and I was aware of it, I would have combined the 1st and 2nd place calcutta money and split it equally too. This happens all the time in little weekly tournaments with no calcutta. Usually, there is a rule though that the first set of the final must be played all the way through. (for the house to get the quarters).
This shouild never occur in a 32 or bigger tournament or one that has
a calcutta. The tournament director is responsible ultimately to see that
cutting up of the money does not occur to their knowledge.

Making sure their names are now Mud1 and Mud2 all over the whole state
will cut their 'action' off.
 
Kelly_Guy said:
If they wanted to split their share of winnings, all they had to do was make the agreement before the start of the set. Then, they play the set out for the people who have a share of calcutta riding on the outcome.
If they did not have time to sit and play for whatever reason, they could have agreed to split the money, lag or flip for the break, and the loser forfeits. That way there is a 1st and 2nd determined for the culcutta.
Kelly
Click to expand...

Yeah, What he said. The kids pretty smart. Gambling is Gambling toss the coin now and be done with it.
 
ridewiththewind said:
Well, I know there will not be another Calcutta, after this. The TD added the Calcutta because it was requested by most who were entered. And, my understanding is that both players took a 30% cut each on their Calcuttas.

As I have already stated, I really do not understand Calcuttas, but they do appear to 'muddy' the waters a bit. On the flip side, a little integrity on the part of the players in question would have been nice. Probably didn't even declare their winnings at the border....maybe a call to Canadian Customs is in order....I can get their full names easy enough.

Lisa
Click to expand...

A calcutta is nothing more than an auction (that is a gamble). Each player is bid on by themselves, other players, spectators, the door greeter, whoever. The highest bidder wins that player's share of the calcutta money if he happens to place high enough in the money. The player has the option of buying half of the bid price, and usually does. That means he puts up half of the bid price, and he will get half of the calcutta money for whatever he places.

I personally don't see what the big deal was unless the two players actually stole money. If they only left with the combined 1st and 2nd place tournament prize money, and their shares of the 1st and 2nd place calcutta (assuming they both bought half of themsleves), then they simply elected to not play the set and split the money evenly.

The tournament director could have simply flipped a coin for the two patrons who bought the other half of the two players to see who would win 1st place calcutta versus 2nd, or the two patrons could have agreed to split their share of the calcutta as well.

Kelly
 
Nostroke said:
They threw the set or just stopped playing and agreed to a split?
Click to expand...

I am still trying to get the particulars. I just found about it at the money shoot last night, and emotions were pretty high....so I am sure I did not get all the info. They were still playing that set as of 5:30pm on Sunday.....and since I was out later on Saturday, I was at another shoot on Sunday. I do know that they agreed on the split...but am unsure at what point in the set it took place.

I appreciate those who have explained Calcuttas to me.....I was pretty much clueless as to how they worked, as to division of monies. All I knew was it was a bet on who would place in the top 4 spots.

I never stated anything about them being banned from playing here in the US. Just that, because apparently, this has been an issue in the past with these two particular players here in WA tournaments, they have been banned from playing in most. I guess folks in these parts consider it unethical behavior.

It was more than just the one guy affected in the Calcutta....he just had the most in.

Lisa
 
There is a difference between throwing the set or splitting. The income generated for 1st and 2nd is combined and split in some agreeable ratio and is common practice among all good players. Doesn't make it right and disappoints the fans, but it is just business to these guys.

Usually one of them is designated as the 'winner', ordinarily the guy that won the winner's bracket. It is also not usually done unless the player coming from the B side wins the first set, in a true double elimination format.

Throwing the set connotates dumping the match for financial gain and I don't see that happening here, as they have both already earned their money.

However, once the Calcutta enter the picture, other people are involved besides the players and it should be played out. Anytime there is a Calcutta, the players should play it out; they can split the money later if they want to.

Lisa, I probably know the players involved, so you can pm me if you want to. In all honesty, if they lived on Vancouver Island (Victoria or thereabouts), there is a chance of missing their ferry, as I was in the finals up there once and missed the ferry coming back to the states.

Calling the border will only get you guys in trouble, as Calcuttas are illegal in the state of WA. The term Player's Auction has a better chance of being legal. I know, it is just semantics, but it sounds better to the Gambling Commission. :rolleyes:

I wish I had known about the tournament, I might have played in it. :)
 
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Nostroke said:
Lisa you don't understand Calcuttas as you admit. Just calm down.

We still dont know if they "threw the set" or just didnt play the set. If the latter, there was really nothing done wrong at all IMHO.

Dont be calling Customs for crying out loud. Cheesh.
Click to expand...

IMHO, Calcuttas are a scheme whereby someone (the operator, of course) makes a killing over the long haul. Sounds like a pretty good con. Are they legal? Depends on where they take place, from what I've read. Is there an opportunity for rip offs? You betcha. And the possibilities for shady deals are endless.

By the way, I know of one case where the operator of a major tour (after problems with the way one of its Calcuttas turned out) subsequently changed jobs. Was it stress related? Too much grief? Or just time to move on? Whatever the reason, he's no longer running those things.

Flex
 
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