SVB's Break

Another reason Shane out breaks most/all in his matches is because he's always the first out to warm up on the table the match will be played on. The one thing he always does while warming up is find the groove of the table for his break.

He keeps breaking, changing QB position, speed, and where he hits the 1-ball until he makes balls and has a shot on the lowest ball. Then and only then does he start shooting balls into the pockets. He knows how important the break is in rotation games and in all games really. For the life of me I can't understand why more players don't test their break on the table BEFORE the match. Johnnyt
 
Cornerman said:
Disregarding the folks who will always chime in about less movement being better, I'll give an answer to your question. Bustamante had an article on how he (Busty) breaks. Shane does everything in that article as well. Where Bustamante has reached over 30 mph on his break, Shane doesn't approach that speed. But, because of his technique, I'm sure he could if he wanted to.

From the technical side, it's about momentum and timing. Shane moves his entire body forward during the break shot, so the momentum and energy come not only from the speed and mass of his stick, but also the speed and mass of part of his body. Since there is much more body mass, he doesn't need to move as fast. That's why it looks effortless. Because he can get great speed with less effort, he can concentrate on accurate hits.

The problem is that since he's moving, it can be hard to control the stick. He can so after thousands of hours of practice. And I'm sure it wasn't like he was all over the place to begin with. For the rest of us, it would take as much time to really lock down the timing. It's not just natural talent. He works hard, so I'm told. A hundred break shots on the BreakRAK per session. That's dedication. He should pipe in and confirm or deny that rumor.

So, here's the process flow:

  • Aim and warm up strokes low in stance, very low on the cueball
  • Final back swing, raise elbow and lock
  • Drive hips forward and begin to rise the stance
  • While driving forward, stroke the stick forward. The elbow is dropping slightly.

Most of Shane's breaks, the cueball hops in the air and has a lot of follow on it after it hits the one ball squarely, and it skids to a stop or rolls forward. I think some follow on the cueball must be from where his tip actually hits the cueball, but some could be transferred to it because the cueball is in the air when it hits the head ball. I've seen him hit a flatter break, with no hop, and the cueball came straight back.

Fred
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THANKS! Great post...as usual.

Regards,
Jim
 
CrossSideLarry said:
Remember Hank Aaron? "Hammering Hank" as he was called. Its all in the wrist snap. "
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Oh yeah. That's right. I forgot the wrist snap, which IMO is super important. You get the speed of the stick, without having to use so much arm muscle. Again, it's controlling all of the motion that makes it difficult. IMO, it's worth it.Others might disagree.

Fred <~~~ can't hit the center of the cueball
 
CrossSideLarry said:
Remember Hank Aaron? "Hammering Hank" as he was called. Its all in the wrist snap. The late great Hustler, Harry "Poochy" Sexton had a break like Shane's. He could stand up a coke bottle flush against the rail and place the butt of his cue flush against the bottle. He would then bet that you could remove the bottle while he kept his cue in position and without anymore backswing than the distance to the rail (approx. 2 1/2 inch) make at least one ball. I watched him do it many times on a nine foot table. It was all in his amazing ability to generate power from the wrist snap. Granted, he couldn't do it every time but you would go broke betting against him.

Cross-Side-Larry

"Learn from the best, and beat the rest"
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Personally, I tend to agree that the two essential dynamics are the "up move" that Conlin Colenso explained so thoroughly and the SNAP of the wrist.

You correctly used the baseball analogy and golf is spot on as well. It is well know that in the golf and baseball swings, the "delayed release" and then super-rapid "pronation" of the wrists is THE major factor in generating club head and bat speed.

In both swings, arm speed is quite slow...20-30 mph or so and yet in the fraction of a second that pronation occurs, the golf club accelerates to 100 mph+.

A whip is the most dramatic example wherein arm speed of 20 mph or so results in tip accelleration to as fast as MACH TWO....50,000 Gs have been recorded.

Body mass plays a supporting role but IMHO, it's more like a jet flying with a tail wind....it ain't the tail wind that is creating the preponderance of the speed.

Bustamante is...what...5'6" and Alex is smaller than that so body mass and arm strength just can't be the PRIMARY factors.

Seems to me the trick is

1. The magnitude of the wrist cock
2. The timing of the release
3. The coordination of body movement in support of the above
4. The physical "gift" of being able to coordinate the above cvonsistently while accurately delivering the cue along an intended path.

I would guess that high speed photography would show that the great breakers generate considerably higher wrist speeds.

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
Personally, I tend to agree that the two essential dynamics are the "up move" that Conlin Colenso explained so thoroughly and the SNAP of the wrist.

You correctly used the baseball analogy and golf is spot on as well. It is well know that in the golf and baseball swings, the "delayed release" and then super-rapid "pronation" of the wrists is THE major factor in generating club head and bat speed.

In both swings, arm speed is quite slow...20-30 mph or so and yet in the fraction of a second that pronation occurs, the golf club accelerates to 100 mph+.

A whip is the most dramatic example wherein arm speed of 20 mph or so results in tip accelleration to as fast as MACH TWO....50,000 Gs have been recorded.

Body mass plays a supporting role but IMHO, it's more like a jet flying with a tail wind....it ain't the tail wind that is creating the preponderance of the speed.

Bustamante is...what...5'6" and Alex is smaller than that so body mass and arm strength just can't be the PRIMARY factors.

Seems to me the trick is

1. The magnitude of the wrist cock
2. The timing of the release
3. The coordination of body movement in support of the above
4. The physical "gift" of being able to coordinate the above cvonsistently while accurately delivering the cue along an intended path.

I would guess that high speed photography would show that the great breakers generate considerably higher wrist speeds.

Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...

I'm skeptical of the value of wrist snap in pool. The extra speed from wrist snap in golf and baseball is all due to the fact that the wrist is whipping a long extension (the golf club and the baseball bat) around in a wide arc, magnifying the speed of the hand. In pool there's no such extension, so no such magnification.

To see how much speed is added to your pool stroke by snapping your wrist, try hitting the cue ball by moving nothing but your wrist. If you held your stick extended like a bat or club the speed would be dramatic, but held perpendicular (as a pool cue is) you get none of the "whip" action.

[NOTE: This isn't a poke at av84fun. Lots of people believe the wrist snap theory - I used to.]

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'm skeptical of the value of wrist snap in pool. The extra speed from wrist snap in golf and baseball is all due to the fact that the wrist is whipping a long extension (the golf club and the baseball bat) around in a wide arc, magnifying the speed of the hand. In pool there's no such extension, so no such magnification.

To see how much speed is added to your pool stroke by snapping your wrist, try hitting the cue ball by moving nothing but your wrist. If you held your stick extended like a bat or club the speed would be dramatic, but held perpendicular (as a pool cue is) you get none of the "whip" action.

[NOTE: This isn't a poke at av84fun. Lots of people believe the wrist snap theory - I used to.]

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Pat,
Perhaps you could think of it in relative terms. the golf club is over 3 ft long and the ball speeds are over 100mph. The stroking part of your arm is much shorter and therefore cant create anywhere near the same speeds. (30ish) mph. Think about how long a whip is and the flexibility in it that generates those insane velocities. Later, Jay
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'm skeptical of the value of wrist snap in pool. The extra speed from wrist snap in golf and baseball is all due to the fact that the wrist is whipping a long extension (the golf club and the baseball bat) around in a wide arc, magnifying the speed of the hand. In pool there's no such extension, so no such magnification.

To see how much speed is added to your pool stroke by snapping your wrist, try hitting the cue ball by moving nothing but your wrist. If you held your stick extended like a bat or club the speed would be dramatic, but held perpendicular (as a pool cue is) you get none of the "whip" action.

[NOTE: This isn't a poke at av84fun. Lots of people believe the wrist snap theory - I used to.]

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Patrick, what I think you are missing is a matter of scale...or degree. No one would suggest that the wrist snap in pool would provide anywhere near the addes acceleration to a pools stroke as a golf or baseball swing.

But in pool, maximum achievable cue speed is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 mph not 100 mph+ as is the case with the golf swing.

So, even a 3 mph increase in cue speed is a big deal. Rather than the experiment you suggested, I think the more appropriate experiment would be to attemt a break shot with an entirely rigid wrist and then with a wrist snap. Certainly, you will find that you generate greater speed with a wrist break than without.

Therefore, the issue seems clear that the wrist snap IS an important factor, with the only question being...to what degree?

[note: This isn't a poke at Patrick. Lots of people, including me, evolve opinions without supporting facts...although I try to be less inclined to do so than some.]
 
the wrist snap IS an important factor, with the only question being...to what degree?
Click to expand...

The degree determines whether it's important.

By the way, I was sincerely trying to defuse this before you got started with your usual pointless crap. Shoulda known it was hopeless.

pj
chgo
 
A baseball pitcher is another anaolgy. Yes, the ball is at the end of a "lever" that could be defined as from the shoulder to the end of the fingers...or even from the pitcher's center of mass...but the ball is also at the end of a VERY short level defined as from the wrist to the finger tips.

If a pitcher used ALL the leverage available to him EXCEPT he did not cock and release his wrist, then I would imagine that his fast ball speed would erode by half.

Regards,
Jim
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
The degree determines whether it's important.

By the way, I was sincerely trying to defuse this before you got started with your usual pointless crap. Shoulda known it was hopeless.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

DIFFUSE WHAT????

YET AGAIN is it YOU who descend to vulgar insults. I certainly did not....sir.
 
A baseball pitcher is another anaolgy. Yes, the ball is at the end of a "lever" that could be defined as from the shoulder to the end of the fingers
Click to expand...

That's three levers: shoulder to elbow, elbow to wrist, wrist to fingers. The elbow to wrist lever is the main one that "whips" the ball (travels through its arc in a much shorter time during the last moments of the first lever's movement). I doubt that the wrist adds nearly as much, even though it has the added length of the fingers to work with (in comparison to a pool grip).

pj
chgo
 
DIFFUSE WHAT????
Click to expand...

This isn't a poke at me?

This isn't a poke at Patrick. Lots of people, including me, evolve opinions without supporting facts...
Click to expand...

You're transparent, man. But I won't respond to your adolescent defensiveness any more. Strictly the topics.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
That's three levers: shoulder to elbow, elbow to wrist, wrist to fingers. The elbow to wrist lever is the main one that "whips" the ball (travels through its arc in a much shorter time during the last moments of the first lever's movement). I doubt that the wrist adds nearly as much, even though it has the added length of the fingers to work with (in comparison to a pool grip).

pj
chgo
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What decrease in speed do you think would occur if a pitcher held his wrist locked without cocking and releasing it?

I think it would be "important."
 
Patrick Johnson said:
This isn't a poke at me?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

READ THE QUOTE! I included MYSELF in that remark and I CERTAINLY did not resort to childish vulgarities in referring to you because if I did, I would expect to be banned from this forum.

You're transparent, man. But I won't respond to your adolescent defensiveness any more. Strictly the topics.
Click to expand...

That's about the fifth time you have said that and possibly, this time, you will be telling the truth.

And if you think your original parenthetical remark about me...in which you were utterly dismissive of my suggestions regarding the importance of the wrist snap...was anything other than a condescending swipe, then you give very little credit to the intelligence of the viewers of this thread.

Nevertheless, I did not descend to childish vulgarities. You have obvious anger managment issues Patrick that I think you should work on getting under control.

Regards,
Jim
 
What decrease in speed do you think would occur if a pitcher held his wrist locked without cocking and releasing it?

I think it would be "important."
Click to expand...

I think it would be way less than half the total (your first estimate).

Even then I bet it's a lot more important than the wrist snap in pool, which uses muscles less effectively, is "cocked" less and has half the lever length.

pj
chgo
 
if you think your original parenthetical remark about me...in which you were utterly dismissive of my suggestions regarding the importance of the wrist snap...was anything other than a condescending swipe, then you give very little credit to the intelligence of the viewers of this thread.
Click to expand...

So "lots of people believe that" was a condescending swipe, but you were adult enough to ignore it and your "lots of people evolve opinions without supporting facts" was innocent? That's what you're claiming?

LOL. You get more transparent with every shovelfull.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think it would be way less than half the total (your first estimate).

Even then I bet it's a lot more important than the wrist snap in pool, which uses muscles less effectively, is "cocked" less and has half the lever length.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Well, you were initially dismissive of the importance of the wrist snap AT ALL.

Now, your bet is that a pitcher with a locked wrist would throw "WAY" more slowly.

By "WAY", I think a fair presumption would be, say, at least 20%. So, I suggest a 50% erosion and you imply a 70% erosion.

A typical fast ball travels at 95 mph. Half of that is, call it 48 mph and 70% slower would be about 29 mph.

I suggest that any high school pitcher can throw a baseball faster than 29 mph with a locked wrist and I would quote you as my authority when you wrote "The elbow to wrist lever is the main one that "whips" the ball "

I am not a physiologist Patrick and I expect you are not either. I did not state boldly that the wrist does or does not impart X% benefit to the break stroke in pool.

I started this thread because Shane's break is so powerful with such APPARENT effortlessness that I thought the subject was well worth DISCUSSION.

DISCUSSION seems fine with you untill you are disagreed with at which point, the discussion, in your mind, becomes "pointless and adolescent crap."

I have PROMISED not to respond to you in kind and will not.

Regards,
Jim
 
Patrick Johnson said:
So "lots of people believe that" was a condescending swipe, but you were adult enough to ignore it and your "lots of people evolve opinions without supporting facts" was innocent? That's what you're claiming?

LOL. You get more transparent with every shovelfull.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Earlier you wrote...

"You're transparent, man. But I won't respond to your adolescent defensiveness any more. Strictly the topics."

You seem to be unable to restrain yourself.
 
... you were initially dismissive of the importance of the wrist snap AT ALL.
Click to expand...

What do you think has changed?

Now, your bet is that a pitcher with a locked wrist would throw "WAY" more slowly.
Click to expand...

You misread that - I said wrist snap accounted for way less than 1/2 of the total pitch speed (that was your estimate of how much it added).

[snip imaginative math]

... I did not state boldly that the wrist does or does not impart X% benefit to the break stroke in pool.
Click to expand...

No, you stated that the wrist accounts for 50% (or more? I don't remember) of the speed of a baseball pitch. I thought that was plenty "bold" of you.

pj
chgo
 
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