synthetic pool cues

Please

Of course I obviously have a strong opinion of the benefits of wood but I will concede I have played with a couple of Cuetek (sp?) cues that felt pretty close to natural materials. But I wonder why I would want to support something that is ?pretty close? to something that is readily available.

These are a few of the reasons I see (feel free to add any others):
1) To bring an improvement to the instrument ? The big difference between golf clubs and tennis racquets is the primary movement of the sport/instrument tests the flex(ural) characteristics of the moment resulting from a radial, cantilevered strike. The forces created by the increase in the swinging (canti)lever?s length approach the elastic limit of both the club and racquet head and shaft. As we have argued here, ad nauseum, our sport tests the compressive characteristics of the cue (unfortunately at this point we, in the pool world, uniquely do not concede the reality of ?Poisson?s Ratio?) and does not reasonably approach any limit of strength of the traditional material. So my question remains: why would you support something that will not reasonably improve on the original.
2) To be different ? a marketing distinction??nuf said.
3) To bring cheaper cues to the masses ? to make them affordable for everyone in furtherance of the ?disposable society? because the carbon fibre, fiberglass, plastic are generally molded in an exothermic process and cannot be repaired, This has been one of the major stumbling blocks of carbon fibre car parts?that they cannot be repaired.
4) To relieve the pressure to log the rain forest. OK?you got me on this one but I can already see where commercial forestry will become a world-wide convention and the image of slashing and burning should fade.
5) Personal preference ? I know few people who prefer the look, feel and performance of petroleum based products over wood. I cannot recall the famous boat designer who has been quoted for pointing out that if wood were to be suddenly discovered today it would be a miracle product. I personally agree.

So I wonder what could be more of a rude capitalist assault on an effectively cottage industry by persons who lack the knowledge/abililty to traditionally produce a quality product and the respect for the intelligence of the players?AND the only motivation is to carve out market share with clever quotes, deceitful devices and marketing innuendo.

Sorry for the venom...I become concerned when someone posts crap like this and no one goes off on him...guess it'll be me...apologies again.

Just my opinion, you be the judge.

Hittman
 
Interesting points of veiw. I geuss I can legitimately see the synthetics becoming the mainstream cue of the future. Personally, I feel I will still prefer the wood cues then, like I prefer them now.

MastersMaster~on his way to start hoarding quality wood cues.
 
Actually

As a professional tennis player and instructor for close to 25 years I felt I had to set the record straight as to why metal then graphite became so popular. The newer materials did not provide more power or greater spin or better feel to the game of tennis. What they did do was provide a similar feel to wood (a touch firmer/crisper in my opinion) in a lighter weight frame with a bigger head size. With the bigger frame came a bigger sweet spot on the string bed which allowed for more solid shots for the average player, but it was really the lighter weight that did everything. A lighter racquet can be swung faster which is really what is responsible for the faster shots and greater spins being produced by most players.
 
A local pool hall here bought a shipment of the 1 piece synthetic house cues for customers to try instead of the conventional wood cues. He said for the price, he could not pass up the chance to save some money as these should last far longer and require less maintenance then wooden house cues.

I have to tell you though, once you get a synthetic in your hands, you can tell it's not wood-even without hitting a ball. Looks pretty darn good, but it's not wood. Shooting with one, it felt flimsy, lots of flex down the length of the cue. It did play well-for what it was and if you don't know better, you think it was a typical house cue based on feel, sound and hit. If I was an owner and got a good deal on these cues for my houses cues, I would invest in some. Would I ever buy one for myself, nope.

The owner did keep a few of the wooden house cues behind the counter incase someone asked for a wooden cue.

ez
 
HittMan said:
Of course I obviously have a strong opinion of the benefits of wood but I will concede I have played with a couple of Cuetek (sp?) cues that felt pretty close to natural materials. But I wonder why I would want to support something that is ?pretty close? to something that is readily available.

These are a few of the reasons I see (feel free to add any others):
1) To bring an improvement to the instrument ? The big difference between golf clubs and tennis racquets is the primary movement of the sport/instrument tests the flex(ural) characteristics of the moment resulting from a radial, cantilevered strike. The forces created by the increase in the swinging (canti)lever?s length approach the elastic limit of both the club and racquet head and shaft. As we have argued here, ad nauseum, our sport tests the compressive characteristics of the cue (unfortunately at this point we, in the pool world, uniquely do not concede the reality of ?Poisson?s Ratio?) and does not reasonably approach any limit of strength of the traditional material. So my question remains: why would you support something that will not reasonably improve on the original.

If two things perform equally well but one is more durable then that in and of itself is an improvement. So if that is the only advantage then it is still a worthwhile one. From a consumption standpoint a cue that plays as well as wood but will not warp or otherwise change shape should be more desirable than one that is quite susceptible to the environment it's in.

2) To be different ? a marketing distinction??nuf said.

True. From a manufacturing standpoint if one can bring to market a different approach that also fulfills the task then that can be a competitive advantage. There is nothing inherently wrong about offering choice.

3) To bring cheaper cues to the masses ? to make them affordable for everyone in furtherance of the ?disposable society? because the carbon fibre, fiberglass, plastic are generally molded in an exothermic process and cannot be repaired, This has been one of the major stumbling blocks of carbon fibre car parts?that they cannot be repaired.

Although the cheapest cues on the market are all wood cues. Cuetecs on average cost more than most mass produced brands on the web. So that argument does not hold up. In fact IF one believes that a Cuetec IS more durable than an all wood cue then it will last longer than a wood one and therefore consume less natural resources over the lifetime use. Graphite can be sanded, bonded, joined, and repaired depending on the particular construction method and application.

4) To relieve the pressure to log the rain forest. OK?you got me on this one but I can already see where commercial forestry will become a world-wide convention and the image of slashing and burning should fade.

It would be nice if concern for the environment were the primary reason that synthetic products are made to replace wood. But the real reason is innovation. People are driven to attempt to make something better. Whether it is or not will always be a subject of debate among purists.

5) Personal preference ? I know few people who prefer the look, feel and performance of petroleum based products over wood. I cannot recall the famous boat designer who has been quoted for pointing out that if wood were to be suddenly discovered today it would be a miracle product. I personally agree.

Of course wood is a miracle substance. No doubt about it. However it cannot be disputed that there are plenty of applications where synthetics have successfully replaced wood. And there are plenty of applications that are just nicer in wood.

So I wonder what could be more of a rude capitalist assault on an effectively cottage industry by persons who lack the knowledge/abililty to traditionally produce a quality product and the respect for the intelligence of the players?AND the only motivation is to carve out market share with clever quotes, deceitful devices and marketing innuendo.

Sorry for the venom...I become concerned when someone posts crap like this and no one goes off on him...guess it'll be me...apologies again.

Just my opinion, you be the judge.

Hittman
Click to expand...

I guess you are talking about me. If you mean that you went off on me by what you posted above you have said pretty much the same thing that I have.

I really don't see however where you can make the assumption that I don't have the knowledge or ability to produce an all wood cue. Nor have I said that they are or will be better.

Please address any particular point that I have made that is "crap" and I will be happy to admit my error if you can adequately point it out.

As for an "assault" on a cottage industry???? Come on, really? Is McDermott assaulting the small cuemaker because they are a large scale manufacturer? Is OB-1 assaulting cuemakers because they create a wood/synthetic spliced shaft? Is Predator?

Is Bill Stroud, who makes Joss West cues, assaulting the cottage industry when he builds shafts that contain piezo-electric fabric to improve performance? If Bill came out with a graphite shaft then I bet a lot of cuemakers in the cottage would start experimenting with graphite.

Greedy capitalist signing off :-)
 
John:
...a pleasing tone generally accompanies a good hitting cue. However what a "pleasing tone" sounds like is completely subjective.
Click to expand...

And what a "good hitting" cue hits like is also completely subjective. I've never heard a description of it that could be called objective.

pj
chgo
 
JoeyInCali said:
I am not aware of many cuemakers who build their cues according to the tonal qualities of the wood, perhaps Bub Runde. Maybe more should. I don't doubt that there is something to building according to tone.

More than you think.:)
I believe Harvey Martin was the first one to bounce woods for tone.
So IF you are correct that the tonal qualities of wood can be combined to produce a good cue then it only follows that IF there are synthetic substitutes for wood that produce the proper tones consistently that those materials could be used to produce a good and consistent cue.
Yes. Make me a pair that sound and act like Brazilian rosewood and rock maple.
Golf and tennis players talk about the feel of their equipment all the time
But synthetics/steel in their equipment were designed to make the ball go longer and spin more.
Click to expand...

I think that if you have enough money and incentive you can make a cue out of synthetic material that acts and sounds like one made of Brazilian rosewood and hard rock maple.

If one wants to debate the possibility of creating synthetic pool cues that are virtually indistinguishable from wooden ones then I personally believe that there is no debate. I think that it's possible and only limited by the amount of resources being put into it.

If one wants to debate the romantic nature of wood then it's no contest. Wood wins. Wood is easier to shape and change the properties, it looks better, is warmer, feels better in the natural sense.

No matter what comes down the line for synthetic pool cues they will never replace the custom cuemaker any more than the proliferation of inexpensive wood cues has replaced them. If anything, synthetics will only compete for the consumers of inexpensive mass produced cues.
 
Synthetic cue materials

John Barton said:
I think that if you have enough money and incentive you can make a cue out of synthetic material that acts and sounds like one made of Brazilian rosewood and hard rock maple.

If one wants to debate the possibility of creating synthetic pool cues that are virtually indistinguishable from wooden ones then I personally believe that there is no debate. I think that it's possible and only limited by the amount of resources being put into it.

If one wants to debate the romantic nature of wood then it's no contest. Wood wins. Wood is easier to shape and change the properties, it looks better, is warmer, feels better in the natural sense.

No matter what comes down the line for synthetic pool cues they will never replace the custom cuemaker any more than the proliferation of inexpensive wood cues has replaced them. If anything, synthetics will only compete for the consumers of inexpensive mass produced cues.
Click to expand...

Well said, that is what I thought. I was starting to think you were talking about higher end cues. In light of this statement, I will be as positive as anyone if you produce a new line of cues or cases, I think you are an innovator. I don't know if you remember me, but I own the 16 x 32 Instroke you designed for Leonard Bludworth
 
synthetic cue issues of art vs function

I have antique furniture & oriental rugs throughout my home. I consider them to be pieces of art & appreciate the craftsmanship & consider them to be investments. I would not trade their romance & aesthetics for the durability & stain resistant properties of synthetics. I might have a different perspective if I had small children.

Many of the cues displayed on this forum are truly works of art & investments. I respect those cuemakers as artists & craftsmen. As players, they have also contributed to advances in the engineering of cues. I hope to acquire a few such cues some day & I suspect that the psychological dimensions of caressing such an instrument might even improve my game & give me such a sense of well being that I would be addicted. I can't imagine breaking with one of those cues. It would be like playing racket ball in the Sistine Chapel. But, who knows?


However, I have noticed that Allison Fischer & Earl Strickland have endorsed Cuetec. Are they merely appearing with the cue for the money or do they utilize these cues in tournaments? Do these synthetic cues offer any functional/performance advantages?
 
Alternative Considerations

OK?
I make the assumption because of the following statements made:
1) that Golf and Tennis players don?t take in to effect the tonal qualities of the materials.
2) That there are few cue makers that take tonal qualities into account. I suspect most do but may not even realize it. It would be characterized as ?hit? and ?feel?. I personally live by it.
3) There is a definite give/take with most material choices?what is emphasized is the IF factor and what seemed to be de-emphasized (or not presented) are the negative factors in the trade off?such as the effect of age, UV exposure, water absorption, oil absorption, VOC?s in the manufacturing process, their reliance on cheap petroleum products, and last but not least the negative effect of product liability being in constant contact with such products from manufacturing to end user. Are you aware that the beryllium copper used in Ping golf clubs will kill you if ingested in quite small amounts?even has a name?beryliosis?or some such. I am amazed that a high dollar industry would continue to put its hard earned capital on the line in this manner. The actual dollar effect on their fianancial statement will be devastating should there be even one (successful or not) lawsuit against them. Additionally the days of setting up deadly manufacturing processes in the United States that place the lives of workers-to-users in jeopardy are nearly over. AND the days of closing the financial records without taking into account the wholesale abuse of the environment and the cost of remediation are even closer?just buy a piece of real estate and you will notice a new form for environmental liability backed up by research into past nonconforming use of the property.
4) I agree that synthetics have replaced wood in many industries but has a long way to go to reach 95%...possibly you are not aware of the size and annual growth statistics of the wood products industry. That is way off the mark?at best.
5) Yes graphite can be sanded and bonded but will not even approximate the original piece (that is still an ?IF?) so it will be thrown away?just like a wood cue?but what happens then? The wood becomes part of the circle of life and the graphite is the gift that keeps on giving of it toxic properties. Recycle you say? Think about batteries?we have outgrown our ability to manage our inert waste and ignore that which is toxic?leaving it for our children and grandchildren.
6) I agree that innovation is generally positive but I guess I get a little tired of folk doing it at the expense of those around them because there are few mechanisms to enforce accountability. I work daily to change that.
7) I am curious where a synthetic is ?nicer? than wood?nicer is in the eyes of the beholder?we probably won?t agree here.
8) Best for last ? an assault on a cottage industry is no more use of literary license than the romanticizing of technological superiority and innovation?both pardon a world of sins in the process. My real problem is when pseudo-science, hype marketing and greed lead companies to stretch the simple truth, add bells and whistles and run off with the dough. I think we should be very careful not to mislead for profit. I heard from what I consider a fairly reliable source that a certain Iconoclastic cue-maker accepted a pretty good sack of silver to make a trip to China to teach them the techniques of cuemaking, which were, in my case, hard earned. I am also a little insulted when those manufacturers flood the market with cheap (and inferior) products made by (effectively) slave labor and someone tries to tell me it is only a competitive advantage. You can probably tell I am not a fan of NAFTA. I am politically aligned with a different camp for all that it implies.

I appreciate that you didn?t offense even though I was not actually singling you out. I did not intend to come off too strong.

Just my opinion?you be the judge.

Hittman
Have you hugged your Guild/tree/brother today?
 
HittMan said:
OK?
I make the assumption because of the following statements made:
1) that Golf and Tennis players don?t take in to effect the tonal qualities of the materials.

I didn't say that. I don't know if they do or not but I didn't say it. If they do then it only speaks to the effectiveness of graphite as that makes up most of the playing equipment in those two sports. (not so sure about Golf though)

2) That there are few cue makers that take tonal qualities into account. I suspect most do but may not even realize it. It would be characterized as ?hit? and ?feel?. I personally live by it.

I am sure that there are cuemakers who do. Bob Runde comes to mind as he was a successful instrument maker before turning to cues. Joey has said that there are and it makes sense. However if you go and read the information on the Rainsong guitar you can learn about the advantages (at least according to the inventor - a physicist) of graphite vs. wood when conisdering the transmission of sound waves. Perhaps the same thing that is an advantage in guitars is a disadvantage in cues. I don't know the science is beyond me, as is the magic combination of what makes one cue hit great and another hit like crap regardless of price or maker.

3) There is a definite give/take with most material choices?what is emphasized is the IF factor and what seemed to be de-emphasized (or not presented) are the negative factors in the trade off?such as the effect of age, UV exposure, water absorption, oil absorption, VOC?s in the manufacturing process, their reliance on cheap petroleum products, and last but not least the negative effect of product liability being in constant contact with such products from manufacturing to end user. Are you aware that the beryllium copper used in Ping golf clubs will kill you if ingested in quite small amounts?even has a name?beryliosis?or some such. I am amazed that a high dollar industry would continue to put its hard earned capital on the line in this manner. The actual dollar effect on their fianancial statement will be devastating should there be even one (successful or not) lawsuit against them. Additionally the days of setting up deadly manufacturing processes in the United States that place the lives of workers-to-users in jeopardy are nearly over. AND the days of closing the financial records without taking into account the wholesale abuse of the environment and the cost of remediation are even closer?just buy a piece of real estate and you will notice a new form for environmental liability backed up by research into past nonconforming use of the property.

I agree with you for the most part here. I am not prepared to debate the environmental footprint of a carbon fiber pool cue vs. a mostly wooden one. I don't have enough info for that. I expect that for each point on either side there will be a valid counterpoint.

4) I agree that synthetics have replaced wood in many industries but has a long way to go to reach 95%...possibly you are not aware of the size and annual growth statistics of the wood products industry. That is way off the mark?at best.

I am not sure what part of my statements you are plucking the 95% figure from but I can assure you that in many industries carbon fiber or other synthetics have replaced wood 100%. I don't really want to this to become a he/said she said debate about it. The core question remains as to whether carbon fiber or synthetics of any type would be suitable for cues. I think that it's already been proven that the answer is yes to a certain degree by Cuetec.

5) Yes graphite can be sanded and bonded but will not even approximate the original piece (that is still an ?IF?) so it will be thrown away?just like a wood cue?but what happens then? The wood becomes part of the circle of life and the graphite is the gift that keeps on giving of it toxic properties. Recycle you say? Think about batteries?we have outgrown our ability to manage our inert waste and ignore that which is toxic?leaving it for our children and grandchildren.

Again I can't comment on the environmental footprint. Cues in general however are not disposable items. Even the cheapest of them have useful lifespans that are virtually indefinite with normal care. So I don't really think the analogy applies.

6) I agree that innovation is generally positive but I guess I get a little tired of folk doing it at the expense of those around them because there are few mechanisms to enforce accountability. I work daily to change that.

Ok. Innovation good. Accountability good.


7) I am curious where a synthetic is ?nicer? than wood?nicer is in the eyes of the beholder?we probably won?t agree here.

I didn't say that. I don't think anyone did. "Nicer" is subjective. Speaking as a salesman I have on occasion had the customer who buys the black Carbon Fiber Cuetec purely on the high-tech look.

8) Best for last ? an assault on a cottage industry is no more use of literary license than the romanticizing of technological superiority and innovation?both pardon a world of sins in the process. My real problem is when pseudo-science, hype marketing and greed lead companies to stretch the simple truth, add bells and whistles and run off with the dough. I think we should be very careful not to mislead for profit. I heard from what I consider a fairly reliable source that a certain Iconoclastic cue-maker accepted a pretty good sack of silver to make a trip to China to teach them the techniques of cuemaking, which were, in my case, hard earned. I am also a little insulted when those manufacturers flood the market with cheap (and inferior) products made by (effectively) slave labor and someone tries to tell me it is only a competitive advantage. You can probably tell I am not a fan of NAFTA. I am politically aligned with a different camp for all that it implies.

Well this seems to be quite a hot button issue for you and goes well beyond the scope of the original question. Marketing entered the picture when competition did. As soon as there were two shoemakers in a town they had to market their services in order to gain business. You can look at high end cuemakers and find a lot of marketingspeak about the "advantages" of their particular methods. I am guessing you are familiar enough with the advertising literature and websites of major custom cuemakers to know what I mean.

I appreciate that you didn?t offense even though I was not actually singling you out. I did not intend to come off too strong.

Just my opinion?you be the judge.

Hittman
Have you hugged your Guild/tree/brother today?
Click to expand...

Well, I try not to be personally offended but I think I am the only person in this discussion on the positive side of synthetics who could be grouped into your characterizations of "evil capitalist environment killers". The issues you bring up are far larger in scope and have complex answers. From the suitability of the technology to the social, environmental, and economic impact it's all part of the fabric of life. I think we agree more than you might think.
 
Allison Fischer & Earl Strickland

Earl & Allison appear on Cuetec's website. I just saw Allison in a commercial on ESPN exclaiming the virtues of their synthetic cues.

What do they really use in tournaments?
 
berlowmj said:
Earl & Allison appear on Cuetec's website. I just saw Allison in a commercial on ESPN exclaiming the virtues of their synthetic cues.

What do they really use in tournaments?
Click to expand...

Allison has stated that she uses an off the shelf Cuetec. I am sure she probably has it tipped to her satisfaction.

Earl used to use quite modified versions and as far as I know Cuetec even made shafts and tapers on some of their lines to approximate what Earl liked.

Allison's is probably pretty much the same as what you can buy. I am sure that the shaft is a Cuetec shaft.

Earl's, who knows. Earl turned on Cuetec when they fired him and complained that the cue had been holding him back. My only question about that is what did he play with when he won most of his titles? As I know most of them were won while he was using Cuetec in some hybrid form so if they were holding him back then it was at his direction.

Johhny Archer uses Scorpion cues which are also made by Cuetec. I have no idea how "off the shelf" they are but you can ask Johnny directly at his website or at his new room.

I think recognized world class pool player Mark Tadd has reported that his playing cue is or at one time was a Cuetec. Without any endorsement deal.
 
John Barton said:
Allison has stated that she uses an off the shelf Cuetec. I am sure she probably has it tipped to her satisfaction.

Earl used to use quite modified versions and as far as I know Cuetec even made shafts and tapers on some of their lines to approximate what Earl liked.

Allison's is probably pretty much the same as what you can buy. I am sure that the shaft is a Cuetec shaft.

Earl's, who knows. Earl turned on Cuetec when they fired him and complained that the cue had been holding him back. My only question about that is what did he play with when he won most of his titles? As I know most of them were won while he was using Cuetec in some hybrid form so if they were holding him back then it was at his direction.

Johhny Archer uses Scorpion cues which are also made by Cuetec. I have no idea how "off the shelf" they are but you can ask Johnny directly at his website or at his new room.

I think recognized world class pool player Mark Tadd has reported that his playing cue is or at one time was a Cuetec. Without any endorsement deal.
Click to expand...

P.S. Interesting wikipedia article on carbon fiber: http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber

Especially how much it's used in sports.
 
Good Morning John

I tried to tell you it wasn't just about you...the 95% claim has been removed? Can you do that? I feel like I have entered the twilight zone...don't know who said it.

Yes it is a hot button. Again, my problem is unfounded claims.

And we do agree more than shows from this. I am actually a unrepentant capitalist but I am very serious about ethics, the environment (sustainability) and the political implications of a service society. We, in the USA, can no longer claim manufacturing superiority for a number of reasons (most of which I pointed out in my post). I don't believe we can survive selling each other insurance and management services (both lacking actual physical presence).

As to your question of how to take advantage of the tonal qualities. My experience as a luthier (violins mostly) taught me that the right cut in the right material is everything. The front and back of a violin varies in thickness, according to the skill of the luthier, to efficiently channel the precious vibrations from the sound post or bridge. This is not optimized with the wrong cut in the right wood. As for cues, I have my theories and an instrument (or two) that I consider proprietary. They are not for sale...I will pass them along to someone.

We, of the wood products industry, addressed sustainability and environmental responsibility, as a group, 5 (maybe 6) decades ago, in earnest, because we realized the folly of looking the other way. I did a lot of research into synthetics because I love the idea of mixed media but, at the end of the day, could not, in good conscience or fiscal responsibility, enter the arena. I cannot see how anyone else could with out ignoring some aspect of the environmental truth.

Sorry to have expanded the discussion without warning but I actually have looked at it fairly closely. I will not play the gap and I would like to see any proposal that might accomplish this goal without playing the gap between responsibility and legality. Don't you agree we, as a society, have engaged in this enough?

Maybe we are looking at different things...I can't engage in a discussion about synthetics (plastics) without seeing though the product to the cost.

Just my opinion...you be the judge

Hittman
Andy Bruce
 
News

2022 - John 'Sandman' Saunders was diagnosed with lung cancer after playing 30 years with a carbon based graphite cue. Breathing right over the cue for so many years has resulted in the contamination of his lungs interior, that manifested into lung cancer.

Possibilities ???
 
Snapshot9 said:
2022 - John 'Sandman' Saunders was diagnosed with lung cancer after playing 30 years with a carbon based graphite cue. Breathing right over the cue for so many years has resulted in the contamination of his lungs interior, that manifested into lung cancer.

Possibilities ???
Click to expand...
Sounds like a perfect product to be made in China.:D :eek:
Carbon fiber is nasty.
I won't work with it.
 
Snapshot9 said:
2022 - John 'Sandman' Saunders was diagnosed with lung cancer after playing 30 years with a carbon based graphite cue. Breathing right over the cue for so many years has resulted in the contamination of his lungs interior, that manifested into lung cancer.

Possibilities ???
Click to expand...


I have 15yrs to go then. :D
 
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