System to Compensate for Squirt and Throw

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, I'm impressed by your ability to consider all these variables in combination and come up with a seemingly inclusive system to relate them all. What do you do for a living? I'll be surprised of you don't say you're an engineer of some sort.

However, I myself am an engineer, and I can't even imagine thinking about this stuff while shooting a shot. My question is, although you've come up with a great system to explain how squirt and throw can be controlled and used by varying bridge length and using BHE, do you actually use this system, as written, while playing? I mean really playing, and not just shooting shots to test your theories.

I personally believe that only my subconscious can be relied on to accurately measure and compute the variables in a system like this, and if I try to do it with conscious calculation, I'll inevitably screw it up. I try to understand factors like squirt, throw, and their interplay intellectually, but when it comes to shooting, I rely on my intuition to actually make them happen. I'm curious to hear whether you think systems as complicated as this are really practical in match play.

-Andrew

Hi Andrew,
I actually work in sports marketing now, but I was did my B.Sc.Hons. about 17 years ago and always enjoyed scientific type mental challenges. Mostly I've been involved in sport and studied a range of subjects including bio-mechanics, physiology, endocrinology, geology, civil-engineering, geology, astronomy, psychology, metaphysics and a whole lot of other crap that would put most people to sleep

The subconscious is quite remarkable, but let's make an interesting comparison. Would you back a feel player in making 3 rail banks against a guy who has memorized a bunch of proven banking systems? Fact is some guys have learned, practiced, adapted to and memorized a whole bunch of systems and can quickly identify the variable as the change from table to table, and they know ways of playing each shot, be it with 1-tip running english or 2 tips check (hold-up) english, such that when faced with a proposition shot, they require almost no feel or subconscious action at all, they simple have learn how to play a shot in a way that has much smaller margin of error than someone who is guessing the shot, calling for all his subconscious powers to help him. The same could be true with intelligent systems of aiming and playing with english, or top or bottom.

Another point you mentioned is complexity.

I think even the top players who say they are feel players have a much broader systematic knowledge than average players, though they mightn't recognize it as a system. eg. They have a 70 degree cut down the rail from 5" away. They have played this or similar shots a thousand times with various degrees of english and elevation and top or bottom, and they've learned their tendencies to miss and how to adjust to improve their percentages. A dozen adjustment calculations run through their mind in a few seconds, each metal query they have an answer for based on their experiences. It's effortess, but actually very complex.

It's like learning a language. After time and practice of learning new words and their meanings and using these to develop and express ideas, the extremely complex process becomes almost automatic, requiring merely a slight effort of focusing the mind to present ideas in a clear and eloquent manner.

To link this comparison to my system, though it seems complex at the beginning, it actually aims to simplify and illuminate a set of apparent independent variables into a predictable and usuable system. But it will require practice and study to become familar with the variables and the adjustments to them, such that it becomes more automatic and more valuable in play.

This system is a work in progress, but yes I will definitely use it for some shots based on my current successes and growing familiarity with its execution. I'm a little slow and have to check my chart on some shots now, but soon I will do all the calculations quickly and by eye judgement alone.

In a few months I'll probably be able to memorize my shots after a game so that I'll say something like, "I had a 36" 13 ball, needing a hard stun with OE but had to bridge short around the 8 ball so had to aim it up for the side rail jaw". This is a sign that a process is taking shape in the mind. Like how we listen to players who remember every shot in a game and the strategical thinking for each shot, and a few options available for each shot that they remembered. Like how Bobby Fisher is said to remember every chess move of every game he ever played. The mind adapts to complexity, so much so that after a while complex systems appear natural or subconscious.

Colin

 

[Jal]

jsp,
Very good question re the tip offset. To give a brief answer, it works for all tip offsets.....

Great presentation Colin.

I think throw compensation is a problem here. Consider a particular CB/OB distance on your graph. You show three different pivot points based on shot speed. Otherwise the pivot distance is independent of how much sidespin is applied. But throw is more compilicated than this, particularly when there is little or no follow or draw on the cueball.

For moderate cut angles, it decreases with increasing outside english, reaching zero at some point, then increases in the opposite direction, reaching a maximum at some point, then decreases again with yet more english. With more severe cut angles it first increases for small amounts of outside english, then goes through these same gyrations as you increase the sidespin. If that's not enough, the rate at which these changes take place, as a function of sidespin, itself changes with cut angle and shot speed. As you approach a 90 degree cut, the difference between maximum throw in one direction, no throw, and maximum throw in the opposite direction, shrinks to zero.

I know you're trying to work out an approximate system, but I think it has to address these issues. It just doesn't appear that "three sizes fits all" is enough, especially when you have to allow for a complete reversal in the throw direction. (If I missed the part where you said this was only for something like natural roll shots, my mistake.)

Jim

 

[pete lafond]

Hi Andrew,
..I think even the top players who say they are feel players have a much broader systematic knowledge than average players, though they mightn't recognize it as a system. eg. They have a 70 degree cut down the rail from 5" away. They have played this or similar shots a thousand times with various degrees of english and elevation and top or bottom, and they've learned their tendencies to miss and how to adjust to improve their percentages. A dozen adjustment calculations run through their mind in a few seconds, each metal query they have an answer for based on their experiences. It's effortess, but actually very complex.
..
Colin

This clearly has value and I agree with you and Cornerman that if players lack experience were do they go to understand what is going on.

However in the same breadth (different paragraph though) nothing beats experience because some shots require feel that needs an understanding of the current conditions and equipment also, this part takes experience.

Again, you can show a person that wants to learn to pitch how to throw a curve ball (which is what I believe you are doing) but the best pitchers are a result of feel and experience with their own style.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Great presentation Colin.

I think throw compensation is a problem here. Consider a particular CB/OB distance on your graph. You show three different pivot points based on shot speed. Otherwise the pivot distance is independent of how much sidespin is applied. But throw is more compilicated than this, particularly when there is little or no follow or draw on the cueball.

For moderate cut angles, it decreases with increasing outside english, reaching zero at some point, then increases in the opposite direction, reaching a maximum at some point, then decreases again with yet more english. With more severe cut angles it first increases for small amounts of outside english, then goes through these same gyrations as you increase the sidespin. If that's not enough, the rate at which these changes take place, as a function of sidespin, itself changes with cut angle and shot speed. As you approach a 90 degree cut, the difference between maximum throw in one direction, no throw, and maximum throw in the opposite direction, shrinks to zero.

I know you're trying to work out an approximate system, but I think it has to address these issues. It just doesn't appear that "three sizes fits all" is enough, especially when you have to allow for a complete reversal in the throw direction. (If I missed the part where you said this was only for something like natural roll shots, my mistake.)

Jim

Hi Jim,
I very much want to incorporate all the variables into the system and determine the type of shots they become significant with.

I know of the complexity of some of the issues you raised with throw at various angles, and hopefully I will be able to figure these into the calculations.

I believe the 3 factors used in my graph are the most significant. It's pretty hard to illustrate more than 3 so other rules or complementary graphs will be needed as I experiment further. First step is to realize these initial relationships with some variables kept constant, and then experiment or hypothosize about the effects of these other variable such as shot angle and spin ratio and whatever else comes up.

Perhaps the more complex it is the better, so long as it's eventually predictable. That way most won't bother to learn it and use it against me

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

This clearly has value and I agree with you and Cornerman that if players lack experience were do they go to understand what is going on.

However in the same breadth (different paragraph though) nothing beats experience because some shots require feel that needs an understanding of the current conditions and equipment also, this part takes experience.

Again, you can show a person that wants to learn to pitch how to throw a curve ball (which is what I believe you are doing) but the best pitchers are a result of feel and experience with their own style.

Absolutely, practice is essential. Many aspects of playing require a type of feel from speed control to actually trusting your eyes to the alignment of your shot.

We are not robotic, but practice can make some players appear to be.

I've seen a lot of athletes go backwards when coaches try to systemize their mechanics and it ruins their intuitive feel for motion. I believe paralysis by bad analysis is very common. No one should take systems for granted, they should trust in what their own style has tought them, measure this against other advice and hopefully add to it, rather than detract from it by adding specious methodologies to their game.

 

[Flex]

Perhaps the more complex it is the better, so long as it's eventually predictable. That way most won't bother to learn it and use it against me

Colin

The more complex it is the more interesting it is. When things become too simple they bore the mind. If pool were as simple as tying one's shoelaces, who would dedicate any time to playing?

Question and/or comment. Two of my shafts are extremely low squirt shafts, both were modified and are pretty whippy. For certain shots that's an advantage, for instance when an object ball is on the short rail way at the other end of the table and you want to cut it in to the corner pocket, hitting the rail first just next to the ball with a fair amount of english to kick it into the pocket, is not so tough with the extremely low squirt cue.

With a high squirt cue, it's more difficult, because shooting the shot with extreme english at speed will squirt the cue ball way out there, a whole lot more than the low squirt cue.

However, I've figured out how to do it pretty consistently with my very squirty cue, and it involves back hand english.

Knowing the squirt for a power shot at a specific distance, in this case it's probably 8 1/2 diamonds or so away, I make my bridge at that pivot point, which is about 5 inches and aim center ball for the cue ball to hit just a bit to the side of the object ball. I pivot the cue to shoot the shot with extreme english, and if you look down the aim line of the stick at this point, the shot looks hopeless. Stroke it hard and watch the cue ball squirt wide and come back over, hit the rail right near the object ball, and pot it. Doggonedest thing...

Colin, your systems may be complex, but they sure do answer some of the fundamental questions we all have.

Question: On the shot I just mentioned, would you shoot the shot the way I described it, or maybe use a different shot, or a different shaft that squirts less?

Flex

 

[pete lafond]

...
With a high squirt cue, it's more difficult, because shooting the shot with extreme english at speed will squirt the cue ball way out there, a whole lot more than the low squirt cue.
..
Flex

Hey Flex,

In golf we match equipment to the player (good way to sell more stuff) and some players can not hit a stiff shaft and achieve the same distance as a regular stiffness. Maybe there should be some consideration for the same in pool cues?

I personally do not like whippy shafts. On the other hand if I do not have my cue with me I'll uses a house cue. I do know that I make adjustments to my stroke with a house cue and soon it plays as if it were my own cue, except for the dings and shortness. It is just an adjustment we all make as a result of the equipment. A whippy shaft in pool is like a whippy (regular) shaft in golf, I have to keep shots at slower speeds and restricts (changes) some shot making.

 

[Flex]

Hey Flex,

In golf we match equipment to the player (good way to sell more stuff) and some players can not hit a stiff shaft and achieve the same distance as a regular stiffness. Maybe there should be some consideration for the same in pool cues?

I personally do not like whippy shafts. On the other hand if I do not have my cue with me I'll uses a house cue. I do know that I make adjustments to my stroke with a house cue and soon it plays as if it were my own cue, except for the dings and shortness. It is just an adjustment we all make as a result of the equipment. A whippy shaft in pool is like a whippy (regular) shaft in golf, I have to keep shots at slower speeds and restricts (changes) some shot making.

I've experimented with so many different shafts and configurations I think I could probably play with just about anything. By the way, the stiff shaft I'm referring to was made by Ed Young, about three months ago. It's SUPER stiff, probably the stiffest shaft I've ever shot with. When he made if for me, I only asked him to make the tip 13mm, with an open ferrule, that is with the wood tenon flush with the top of the ferrule where it meets the tip, and to make it be as accurate as possible. He made me this monster stiff cue. Guess what? I love it, now that I've learned how to adapt to it.

I think that it's possible to adapt to just about any shaft and tip combination. For instance, the predator 314 (I have one) really moves the cue ball more easily than my stiff shaft, but for absolutely minimizing cue ball travel, the stiff shaft is the way to go, no doubt about it. I suppose it's all about compromises.

I haven't spent any time at all with the 314 so far, and am really getting into BHE with the stiff one. Ed Young was right. Joey Gold (Cognoscenti Cues) showed me how much easier it is to draw back a very specific distance, say 6 inches, and not 9 or 10 for instance, with a stiffer shafted cue. He's right about that, IMHO.

As for a specific piece of equipment for a specific person, there's no doubt that length and weight and so many other things make a cue work better for one person than another. But I bet if you put a broom handle in the hands of Effren that he'd do just fine with it...

Flex

 

[Colin Colenso]

Knowing the squirt for a power shot at a specific distance, in this case it's probably 8 1/2 diamonds or so away, I make my bridge at that pivot point, which is about 5 inches and aim center ball for the cue ball to hit just a bit to the side of the object ball. I pivot the cue to shoot the shot with extreme english, and if you look down the aim line of the stick at this point, the shot looks hopeless. Stroke it hard and watch the cue ball squirt wide and come back over, hit the rail right near the object ball, and pot it. Doggonedest thing...

Question: On the shot I just mentioned, would you shoot the shot the way I described it, or maybe use a different shot, or a different shaft that squirts less?

Flex

I think you're talking about the rail first cut shot.

For this, my aiming line is to slightly miss the object ball with center cuing aiming. Then use the appropriate bridge length according to speed. Probably around 10" for me at firm, not power speed, over a full table length.

On shafts, I also prefer a stiff shaft, though not entirely sure it's better. I just like a solid hit without vibration, where I can feel the power transfering to the CB.

 

[MacGyver]

Colin:

I havent had a chance to test any of this out, but I have a question and then some advice based on reading over the system and responses...

Question- Why does bridge matter based on distance between OB and CB ball? It seems that deflection and squirt take point at contact and after that point travel on a mostly straight line. Is your chart talking about swirve due to side english(curving the cue ball?) I'm a bit unsure why it is such a large factor when I've noticed that swirve for the most part is very small.

The advice:

If you have the time, you need to develope a system of (practice) shots for a player to determine his cue pivot point for about a 1.5-2 tip offset and medium strength hit.

If I had a system for figuring out my pivot point for different cues that I could perform before playing, it would be extremely benifitial to me as well as many many others....

If you could get such a system and then teach a system of practice shots to demostrate how you have to change it based on strength and I guess distance(if you are in fact factoring in swirve), and ways to apply this at the pool table it would be an even greater help.

Your chart is a big help, but it is a lot to think about... and I think if you had a system of practice shots to first tune your pivot point and then test how your cue reacts to speed and distance, it would help others turn this into "feel" knowledge faster than refering to a chart.

Thanks!!!

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin:

I havent had a chance to test any of this out, but I have a question and then some advice based on reading over the system and responses...

Question- Why does bridge matter based on distance between OB and CB ball? It seems that deflection and squirt take point at contact and after that point travel on a mostly straight line. Is your chart talking about swirve due to side english(curving the cue ball?) I'm a bit unsure why it is such a large factor when I've noticed that swirve for the most part is very small.

The advice:

If you have the time, you need to develope a system of (practice) shots for a player to determine his cue pivot point for about a 1.5-2 tip offset and medium strength hit.

If I had a system for figuring out my pivot point for different cues that I could perform before playing, it would be extremely benifitial to me as well as many many others....

If you could get such a system and then teach a system of practice shots to demostrate how you have to change it based on strength and I guess distance(if you are in fact factoring in swirve), and ways to apply this at the pool table it would be an even greater help.

Your chart is a big help, but it is a lot to think about... and I think if you had a system of practice shots to first tune your pivot point and then test how your cue reacts to speed and distance, it would help others turn this into "feel" knowledge faster than refering to a chart.

Thanks!!!

Hi MacGyver,
The bridge length changes the angle that the cue hits the ball. eg. A 12" bridge with 1.5 tips english moves the cue off angle approximately half as much as 1.5 tips english with a 20" bridge. The CB would travel along this angle except for the squirt. The squirt basically cancels out with the cue angle change at the pivot point. It appears to be consistant over various tip offsets but a slight change with speed of hit.

To determine the pivot point of your cue, I recommend the following:

Place CB on head spot and line up center of the CB to the center of the bottom rail. Use a piece of chalk, turned with edge pointing as the marker.

Pivot the cue to 2 tips english or thereabouts and shoot STRAIGHT through that point. Try various bridge lengths. Hit at a speed that would send the CB about 2.5 table lengths if you were hitting center ball.

A short bridge will deflect the CB in the direction of the english, a long bridge length will deflect to the other side of the chalk as squirt is greater than the change in cue angle. With some trialing you'll find the pivot point, probably somewhere around 10 inches, where the CB travels the exact line of original aim.

Make sure you don't swipe, hit through in a straight line. If you swipe the pivot point masure will tend to be longer. You should find the pivot point is shorter with high speed and longer with slow speed.

Colin