T.O.I by randyg

[randyg]

Randy, I had a friend take one of your clinics here in Phx a few years back, and his stroke was the better for it! From past posts of yours I always got the sense that you were kind of closed minded about some things (I know I am!!!) :wink: ...... and the fact that you've 'opened' your mind to this is impressive to me, and shows me how good of a coach you must be!!! This concept to me is extremely hard to digest because it is such a different way of playing and I just don't know if I have the patience to change that much this late in life.

I know how it works as I have practiced it a considerable amount of time, and love how it works to pocket balls, along with the huge benefit of just working on 'inside' that much. But I have one question for you if you care to answer (privately by pm if you wish) and you feel that you have worked on it enough to do it justice. Is it worth the change?

I just want to say.... I am sure all of your future clients will benefit from your experiment whether or not you adopt it!

td

Thanks TD.

I think you are correct. I am closed minded about certain things.....like having a straight, repeatable stroke.....:smile:

Is it worth the change?
Well that depends on what you are changing from.

Learning something new doesn't mean that we are going to throw away the old.

An Open Mind means you are willing to look at all sides. Age is not a factor.

I think TOI is good. Just because CJ and myself like TOI doesn't mean it will fit everyone.

randyg

 

[stan shuffett]

Stan; Did you ever hear of a GREAT checker player from Chicago, his name is Bob Flood, he is gone now, but I knew him for many years. He was unbelievable!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
http://mr3cushion.com

I will speak with my dad about Bob. I am certain my dad knows of him.
A Robert Flood won a Texas 3 move tittle in the 50s. That is probably the individual.

Alex, from Russia, is the greatest living player today. He lives in the Chicago area, I think. Close to there for sure.

Stan Shuffett

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI is a "NO SPIN" style of play.

I've been using it a while and I seem to have these same issue while playing 8 ball. Very few problems with the rotation games since they allow one to get the stroke out a little better.

Just can't seem to get it to work too well at 8 ball.

If you can come up with a couple of specific situations you're having trouble with I'll be able to straighten you up right away. The TOI is very effective with 8 Ball, however, you will have to see the difference to change how you are currently going about "break outs" and pattern play. Less spin is better playing any pool game, and TOI is a "NO SPIN" style of play.

 

[JB Cases]

IMHO Understanding the basic principles of TOI is easy. Utilizing it properly or mastering it is a bit more than easy.

I hate to say this, but I doubt that I will put much value in randyG's assessment of TOI. The reason being that CJ has said & several of us have found him to be correct that it takes at least a straight 3 hour session with TOI to get the 'feel' of it and how it actually works. I have not seen where Mr. G has done that. I do not think cumulative 1/2 hour sessions will yield the same result. It did not for several of us. It was not until we put in the 3 straight hours that we 'real eyesed' the full value of TOI.

Regards,

Just for the record Randy is way more experienced than the average player. He is one of the elite people in the billiard industry who knows it from the very bottom to the very top. As an instructor he also stands in the elite category. As a player he has the hardware to back up his opinion. And as a person he has the open mind to look at any and every way to play that anyone comes with and absorb and evaluate it much quicker than most.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Just for the record Randy is way more experienced than the average player. He is one of the elite people in the billiard industry who knows it from the very bottom to the very top. As an instructor he also stands in the elite category. As a player he has the hardware to back up his opinion. And as a person he has the open mind to look at any and every way to play that anyone comes with and absorb and evaluate it much quicker than most.

John,

Would you say Mr. G. is on the same level as Mr. Neil?

Regards,

 

[JB Cases]

John,

Would you say Mr. G. is on the same level as Mr. Neil?

Regards,

Yes. While I think Neil is a serious student of the game and is an excellent player I do not think he has been as involved as Randy. Randy is one of the architects of the BCA instructor program (now PBIA), he has successfully as a business ran a professional training facility for as long as I have known him, he co-founded he Texas Express Tour which is even today the model for ALL the regional tours out there, as mentioned he was partners with CJ in a billiard room.

As for straight up pool knowledge it's possible that Neil knows as much as Randy but I don't think that Neil is as experienced as Randy with teaching pool to so many levels of students for as many years.

Randy is in short one of the reigning godfathers of American pool in my opinion. But like all very successful ones he stays low key.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes. While I think Neil is a serious student of the game and is an excellent player I do not think he has been as involved as Randy. Randy is one of the architects of the BCA instructor program (now PBIA), he has successfully as a business ran a professional training facility for as long as I have known him, he co-founded he Texas Express Tour which is even today the model for ALL the regional tours out there, as mentioned he was partners with CJ in a billiard room.

As for straight up pool knowledge it's possible that Neil knows as much as Randy but I don't think that Neil is as experienced as Randy with teaching pool to so many levels of students for as many years.

Randy is in short one of the reigning godfathers of American pool in my opinion. But like all very successful ones he stays low key.

Well John,

Mr. Neil says TOI is basically the same thing as 90/90 & then today Mr. Neil said that 90/90 is basically the same as Pro1.

Apparently to Mr. Neil everything is pretty much the same.

What is your opinion about that?

I don't think CJ sees TOI as the same, do you?

In any case, what was your point of quoting me & then singing the praises of Mr. G.

Regards,

 

[Neil]

Yes. While I think Neil is a serious student of the game and is an excellent player I do not think he has been as involved as Randy. Randy is one of the architects of the BCA instructor program (now PBIA), he has successfully as a business ran a professional training facility for as long as I have known him, he co-founded he Texas Express Tour which is even today the model for ALL the regional tours out there, as mentioned he was partners with CJ in a billiard room.

As for straight up pool knowledge it's possible that Neil knows as much as Randy but I don't think that Neil is as experienced as Randy with teaching pool to so many levels of students for as many years.

Randy is in short one of the reigning godfathers of American pool in my opinion. But like all very successful ones he stays low key.

Not even close. Not even a contest. Randy is way, way, ahead of me when it comes to teaching. Knowledge, I give him the ahead also. Do I agree with everything he says? No. 99%, yes.

 

[Neil]

Well John,

Mr. Neil says TOI is basically the same thing as 90/90 & then today Mr. Neil said that 90/90 is basically the same as Pro1.

Apparently to Mr. Neil everything is pretty much the same.

I don't think CJ sees TOI as the same, do you?

In any case, what was your point of quoting me & then singing the praises of Mr. G.

Regards,

What is your opinion about that?

If you would learn to read, you wouldn't take everything out of context all the time. Just have to troll, don't you?

 

[ENGLISH!]

If you would learn to read, you wouldn't take everything out of context all the time. Just have to troll, don't you?

John & I were just having a conversation.

I was just making a general statement & asking him his opinion.

How is that trolling.

If anyone is trolling here it is you as your post above has no purpose but to insight me by suggesting that I was acting like a troll.

What's your problem? Why don't you grow up & stop acting like a spoiled child. Didn't you learn anything from your recent ban?

 

[JB Cases]

Well John,

Mr. Neil says TOI is basically the same thing as 90/90 & then today Mr. Neil said that 90/90 is basically the same as Pro1.

Apparently to Mr. Neil everything is pretty much the same.

What is your opinion about that?

I don't think CJ sees TOI as the same, do you?

In any case, what was your point of quoting me & then singing the praises of Mr. G.

Regards,

My point was that I felt you were not fully up to speed on Randy's accomplishments and so it seemed to me that your comments were made as if you felt he might be a regular player or a regular mid-level instructor.

I have no opinion on how Neil or anyone else sees or compares TOI. I don't know enough about it to make any type of qualified comment on it. I see it from my own very limited messing around as a viable way to play. I do certainly agree with CJ that it requires a commitment to it and that it's probably not a good idea to mix styles.

To me it's like having two diving coaches, both able to get you to the Olympics and both with different ideas on how to approach diving. One stresses dancing as a way to develop skills and the other stresses trampoline. Both will work to get you good enough but it's likely only one will work well enough for you to win and you will know that on the day you face the other coach's student. (provided you both have the requisite mental strength to not fold under pressure.)

I frankly did not bother to read Neil's treatise carefully on why he thinks TOI "can" work. It was a lot of words and even for me, who likes to write a lot of words it was a solid wall of text. I did see that he compared it to other methods and saw that he has reasons for that. Well, frankly I don't know that his analysis is correct or not but for me and what I know of 90/90 using TOI as a I understand it does not seem to be the same or close. It is important to understand though that CJ says TOI is NOT an aiming system.

With that in mind I don't think it's fair or correct to tell him that it is. I don't find it to be one. I use CTE and go to the shot line and shift to TOI position which could be entirely wrong but it seems to work for me.

 

[Neil]

John & I were just having a conversation.

I was just making a general statement & asking him his opinion.

How is that trolling.

If anyone is trolling here it is you as your post above has no purpose but to insight me by suggesting that I was acting like a troll.

What's your problem?

You and your constant crap of taking things out of context and then saying "but I don't want to be misunderstood". What a load. You know exactly what you always do on here, and you aren't fooling anyone. What possible reason could you have to ask John such a question except to try and start something? The question is ludicrous at best. And, just plain stupid because you go against anything I say on here almost 100%. So, what possible reason could you have to ask anything about my teaching or knowledge levels? You could care less anyways. What ever happened to having me on your ignore list? Was so much nicer when I didn't have my own little shadow to dog me around everywhere.

 

[JB Cases]

You and your constant crap of taking things out of context and then saying "but I don't want to be misunderstood". What a load. You know exactly what you always do on here, and you aren't fooling anyone. What possible reason could you have to ask John such a question except to try and start something? The question is ludicrous at best. And, just plain stupid because you go against anything I say on here almost 100%. So, what possible reason could you have to ask anything about my teaching or knowledge levels? You could care less anyways. What ever happened to having me on your ignore list? Was so much nicer when I didn't have my own little shadow to dog me around everywhere.

How about both of you think about a truce. After all all this in service of becoming a better player. We all have the same goal.

Rick, would you please consider letting it all be water under the bridge and starting over?

 

[ENGLISH!]

My point was that I felt you were not fully up to speed on Randy's accomplishments and so it seemed to me that your comments were made as if you felt he might be a regular player or a regular mid-level instructor.

I have no opinion on how Neil or anyone else sees or compares TOI. I don't know enough about it to make any type of qualified comment on it. I see it from my own very limited messing around as a viable way to play. I do certainly agree with CJ that it requires a commitment to it and that it's probably not a good idea to mix styles.

To me it's like having two diving coaches, both able to get you to the Olympics and both with different ideas on how to approach diving. One stresses dancing as a way to develop skills and the other stresses trampoline. Both will work to get you good enough but it's likely only one will work well enough for you to win and you will know that on the day you face the other coach's student. (provided you both have the requisite mental strength to not fold under pressure.)

I frankly did not bother to read Neil's treatise carefully on why he thinks TOI "can" work. It was a lot of words and even for me, who likes to write a lot of words it was a solid wall of text. I did see that he compared it to other methods and saw that he has reasons for that. Well, frankly I don't know that his analysis is correct or not but for me and what I know of 90/90 using TOI as a I understand it does not seem to be the same or close. It is important to understand though that CJ says TOI is NOT an aiming system.

With that in mind I don't think it's fair or correct to tell him that it is. I don't find it to be one. I use CTE and go to the shot line and shift to TOI position which could be entirely wrong but it seems to work for me.

John,

I read Mr.Neil's dissertation three(3) times. I agree with you that TOI is not the same or close to 90/90. Unless everything that results in the ball getting pocketed is 'the same'. If so then the ghost ball is the same as Pro1.

Mr. Neil says that TOI 'can' work because it is basicallly the same as 90/90. Is Mr. Neil correct because he is Mr. Neil?

Would Mr.G's assessment be correct just because he is Mr. G?

My post was merely pointing out that Mr. G said that he was going to give TOI 2 1/2 hour sessions. CJ has said that it takes nearly 3 straight hours to really 'see' & 'feel' the benefit of TOI. I and a couple of rather experienced players found that to be true. That was the point of my post & why I might not put TOO much credence in what Mr. G might say after just 2 seperate 1/2 hour seesions with it. It was not to suggest that Mr. G is incapable. I thought I qualfied that in a subsequent post.

Now because you & I are having a conversation, Mr. Neil Jumps in & calls me a troll because I used his name in our conversation. I'm getting tired of his behavior. It the other thread he says he won't discuss it with you or me. So here we are in a discussion & he jumps in to insult me.

What should I do. Lie & say I agree with him when I don't. I did not spoil or lie to my 'children'. I told them the truth. I have high regard for the real truth, not versions of it.

Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

You and your constant crap of taking things out of context and then saying "but I don't want to be misunderstood". You repeat yourself. What in this or any instance have I taken anything out of context? What a load. You know exactly what you always do on here, and you aren't fooling anyone. Again, you repeat yourself, who would I want to fool & for what purpose? What possible reason could you have to ask John such a question except to try and start something? I asked John to get his answer as to his opinion & then make a point. I have done that. AND I do not need your approval of what questions I do or do not ask. Just who in the he_ _ do you THINK that you are? The question is ludicrous at best. And, just plain stupid because you go against anything I say on here almost 100%. I disagree with you about the 'pendulum' stroke & your 'opinon' regarding 'TOI'. Is that the extent of your reach? If so, then I guess I disagree with you 100%. So, what possible reason could you have to ask anything about my teaching or knowledge levels? Again, I asked to get John's opinion for comparison purposes to Mr. G. You could care less anyways. Again, you THINK yourself omnisceient & propose to tell me what I care about. Believe me Sir, YOU are NOT omniscient. You have no idea of what my cares are or my thoughts regarding you or anything else. What ever happened to having me on your ignore list? Was so much nicer when I didn't have my own little shadow to dog me around everywhere. YOU jumped in here, I followed you no where, & I am not a DOG. But YOU Sir are a sick old man & I would suggest that you seek medical attention. I hope that you do so before something happens to you.

Why did you delete all of your past posts? Take a sabatical & then return. IMHO Those are the acts of a spoiled child. Perhaps that is why you have lost your popularity. I doubt that it is because I disagree with you on two(2) subjects. Don't try to blame me or take it out on me for your troubles.

I'll stop there except to say that I offered you my hand a while back & you basically spit in it & now here YOU are following me around to troll. Take a look in the mirror. As you so often say you are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing however I am NOT doing what you say that I am. I merely disagree with you on two(2) subjects & voice such & you can't stand that. That's becauce your ego is inappropriately inflated.

You have a good evening & please go see a Doctor. I hope you recover fully from whatever may be afffecting you. I hope it is not too serious.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

This stufffff sounds like a first wife after two years of marriage --- lol

 

[ENGLISH!]

How about both of you think about a truce. After all all this in service of becoming a better player. We all have the same goal.

Rick, would you please consider letting it all be water under the bridge and starting over?

John,

I have tried. When things cooled down from our first disagreement regarding the pendulum stroke, I offered him my hand a while back & he basically spit in it.

He just called me as a DOG. It is he that has been insulting since our first disagreement regarding the pendulum stoke. In every reference he makes to me, it is of an insultive nature. IMHO the man has issues that may be of a medical nature. Pool knowledge will not save one from other issues. I have & will continue to pray for him, but I will not simply bow to his insults.

You saw what just happened. You & I were having a conversation & just because I asked you for your opinion comparing randyG to him, he jumps in & insults me. What would you have me do? Well that's a moot question because I have already made a response.

Best Regards & Best Wishes to You & the Family,

PS It's all your fault. You started it...........Just kidding.

 

[ENGLISH!]

This stufffff sounds like a first wife after two years of marriage --- lol

Man.........you were newlyweds a long time.

 

[CJ Wiley]

you don't have to understand why the Touch of Inside technique works"

I just did a question and answer segment last night on video were I explained TOI in terms of being a musician or artist....to me Pool must be a way to express ones self to perform at the highest level.....when I think of some of the levels I reached {using TOI} it still seems impossible and even at the time I had to take care not to take credit or completely understand what was happening...the ego tells us that we must understand things to do them well....I know there's people reading my posts saying "I don't want to do it until I understand how TOI works!"
"You certainly don't have to - you don't have to understand why the Touch of Inside technique works".........just try experiencing it now, you will have plenty of time to understand it later

 

[Six Shooter]

If you can come up with a couple of specific situations you're having trouble with I'll be able to straighten you up right away. The TOI is very effective with 8 Ball, however, you will have to see the difference to change how you are currently going about "break outs" and pattern play. Less spin is better playing any pool game, and TOI is a "NO SPIN" style of play.

Thank you CJ.

I'll try to do a particular diagram on an occasion a couple of weeks ago and e-mail it to you. Actually, I'll do two. One of which will show the table lay out before I started shooting. The other will show and explain the pattern I played to only end up screwing myself over and my last ball which cost me the game.

At this juncture, I'm really starting to lean on just getting some face to face, hands on instruction which may make more sense in the long run.