T.O.I by randyg

[CJ Wiley]

like reading music and playing by ear.....it's up to the musician.

But i am having difficulty of you favoring TOI over TOO, if you add TOO i will be 1st one to say it is the best system in the world!!

Also steak on me!![/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, you can't have the "best of both worlds"....only the best of one.

I understand the game you are playing all too well. When I came back after a long lay off I tried to play it....if you can do it more power to you.

Again, until you experience what it's like to hit every shot the same way you are choosing the best game. TOI is an option to players like myself that don't want to have to think and "play the game," but not think and let "the game play through us". These are simply two different ways to go about the same thing, like reading music and playing by ear.....it's up to the musician. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[naji]

But i am having difficulty of you favoring TOI over TOO, if you add TOO i will be 1st one to say it is the best system in the world!!

Also steak on me!!

I'm sorry, you can't have the "best of both worlds"....only the best of one.

I understand the game you are playing all too well. When I came back after a long lay off I tried to play it....if you can do it more power to you.

Again, until you experience what it's like to hit every shot the same way you are choosing the best game. TOI is an option to players like myself that don't want to have to think and "play the game," but not think and let "the game play through us". These are simply two different ways to go about the same thing, like reading music and playing by ear.....it's up to the musician. 'The Game is the Teacher'

[/QUOTE]

Sorry no steak for now..How about call it TOE (english)

 

[encore]

I remember buddy Hall commentating on a match and saying his favorite shot is "low outside"

 

[naji]

I remember buddy Hall commentating on a match and saying his favorite shot is "low outside"

OB near rails have very small pocket, it is favorable to spin them in using outside. With inside the pocket will spit them out.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

... the TOUCH is not a unit of measurement, it's literally a touch or feel you get from the cue ball that you won't experience any other way. Using the center or outside of the cue ball does not give same kinesthetic feedback.

Just when I thought I was in, you pull me back out again.:groucho:


"Just a touch" to the right of center CB is inside english on a cut to the right, but outside english on a cut to the left.

How does the cueing hand "feel" that you are using inside? Isn't "inside" dependent upon the direction of the cut you are attempting?

 

[The Renfro]

Sorry CJ, why would i rely on touch and feel when one can hit cue ball center for 100% accuracy and pocketing, all it takes good aiming and straight stroke of which is the basic requiremnt for any shot.
Everyone that plays pool can make the easy shots no matter what english they use, it is when the CB is far away from OB and OB far from pocket are the shots that people wants to make, those key shots that gets you in the game; having said that, in pool we try to minimize injecting possibility of adding errors, with center hit (if the shot can be hit that way to satisfy position) the variables that could cause errors are limited to few, why introduce other complex variables and feel to the already hard shot. I agree some thin cuts close to 90 degrees can benefit from TOI but those are few, and at times hitting with inside or outside is necessary for position.

It's about percentages, patterns and programming...

TOI means you look first at the shot and decide TOI center top or draw to get to the next shot where you can use TOI center, top or draw... IF you are programmed to see these patterns you no longer are looking at using outside so by limiting your approach you increase your percentages... IF you get out of line you may pivot from TOI into an outside english shot but it is for recovery and you are playing back into the TOI center, top or draw pattern not into another TOI pivot if you can help it...

As far as "anyone can make the easy ones regardless of which english"..... This is where you miss the mark... Anyone can make the easy shots but only a pro makes them almost 100% of the time... Most runs are ended by a position error or by missing a make-able shot.... I'd will hazard a guess that you don't shoot extensive drills to know your true percentages... Thinking you will be the same regardless of inside, center or outside while actually playing to a position is usually not reality...

No one says you have to play a certain way... But I am with CJ on reducing the number of variables being the better way...

Chris

 

[Mitchxout]

OB near rails have very small pocket, it is favorable to spin them in using outside. With inside the pocket will spit them out.

It may seem so, but you've got it backwards.

 

[8pack]

I remember buddy Hall commentating on a match and saying his favorite shot is "low outside"

I like outside my self but like Toi speed is everything.I say embrace it all,its there.Get used to both and you will real eyes there really know different.Both play there part in helping you pocket balls.To say one out weights the other is wrong and is only matter of opinion,nothing more.
The preference on using TOI or TOO should be up to the shot and what the shooter feels more comfortable at doing.
could you imagine a player new at the game going at it this way,what a mess.(At least for awhile)

Anthony

 

[CJ Wiley]

It's not about what spin to use (TOI is a NO SPIN system) or limiting your Game

It's about percentages, patterns and programming...

TOI means you look first at the shot and decide TOI center top or draw to get to the next shot where you can use TOI center, top or draw... IF you are programmed to see these patterns you no longer are looking at using outside so by limiting your approach you increase your percentages... IF you get out of line you may pivot from TOI into an outside english shot but it is for recovery and you are playing back into the TOI center, top or draw pattern not into another TOI pivot if you can help it...

As far as "anyone can make the easy ones regardless of which english"..... This is where you miss the mark... Anyone can make the easy shots but only a pro makes them almost 100% of the time... Most runs are ended by a position error or by missing a make-able shot.... I'd will hazard a guess that you don't shoot extensive drills to know your true percentages... Thinking you will be the same regardless of inside, center or outside while actually playing to a position is usually not reality...

No one says you have to play a certain way... But I am with CJ on reducing the number of variables being the better way...

Chris

You understand, Chis, it's like the old saying "I'd rather Master of one, then the "jack" of all {trades}"

One thing about the TOI Technique is it's very easy to tell when someone has experience with using it (and when they don't).

It's not about what spin to use (TOI is a NO SPIN system) or limiting your Game in any way.....it's quite the contrary, this system was designed to beat players that are better than we are....it's simply an advantage to favor the inside, and I've explained why in thousands of posts and it always come down to one fact. The only time you will ever understand the TOI is after you experience it. I'm convinced of this more and more, and I'm also convinced that it will raise anyone's game if applied.....it's a paradox, wrapped in an enigma. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

the TOI Game is an interesting study in human nature. It seems so simple, however....

It may seem so, but you've got it backwards.

You're right, it's funny how either TOI "clicks" or it's often thought of backwards (some people still think it's "inside english").....the TOI Game is an interesting study in human nature.

It seems so simple, however, it goes against the "normal" paradigm of how pool should be played. I'm sure there's examples of this in the evolution of all sports and games, it's basically resistance to change.

 

[8pack]

You're right, it's funny how either TOI "clicks" or it's often thought of backwards (some people still think it's "inside english").....the TOI Game is an interesting study in human nature.

It seems so simple, however, it goes against the "normal" paradigm of how pool should be played. I'm sure there's examples of this in the evolution of all sports and games, it's basically resistance to change.

Are you saying theres no spin on the ball.

 

[CJ Wiley]

You are simply veering the cue ball slightly every shot...it's not about spin

Are you saying theres no spin on the ball.

I don't think it's possible to have absolutely no spin on the ball, that would be a "knuckle ball' on cloth.....not sure that should even be attempted.

With TOI you don't try to apply english, maybe it would help you to think of just "favoring the inside".....it's not enough to put any more spin than you would normally get trying to hit the center of the ball.

I've explained this to you many times, and you still haven't tried it....it's not like crack, I promise you won't get addicted. :groucho:

The TOI is so easy to implement: You are simply veering the cue ball slightly every shot...it's not about spin, it's about creating zones by altering the straight course of the cue ball. The results are amazing indeed, however, you will never conceptualize them....it's one of those funny things in life, like sex, not matter how many times it's explained, you still have to discover what's like yourself......and everyone will have a different experience. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[8pack]

I don't think it's possible to have absolutely no spin on the ball, that would be a "knuckle ball' on cloth.....not sure that should even be attempted.

With TOI you don't try to apply english, maybe it would help you to think of just "favoring the inside".....it's not enough to put any more spin than you would normally get trying to hit the center of the ball.

I've explained this to you many times, and you still haven't tried it....it's not like crack, I promise you won't get addicted. :groucho:

The TOI is so easy to implement: You are simply veering the cue ball slightly every shot...it's not about spin, it's about creating zones by altering the straight course of the cue ball. The results are amazing indeed, however, you will never conceptualize them....it's one of those funny things in life, like sex, not matter how many times it's explained, you still have to discover what's like yourself......and everyone will have a different experience. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I use inside a lot,always have.Even though im not applying it probably in the way your teaching,there are certain type of shots, it just makes it easier.
I've thought about all the different way I can go at a shot and 2 things pop out at me consistently using what your teaching.All shots the cb must somewhat reach the same spot close to the object ball to pocket the ball,(1)you have only created a different approach to that path.(2)You have also created a different type of shape after contact.(cb roll)
Your dvd should be on the way so maybe it will give me a better understanding.

Anthony

 

[CJ Wiley]

The gift of the TOI is in the simplicity of the system, and the powerful effects

I use inside a lot,always have.Even though im not applying it probably in the way your teaching,there are certain type of shots, it just makes it easier.
I've thought about all the different way I can go at a shot and 2 things pop out at me consistently using what your teaching.All shots must somewhat reach the same spot close to the object ball,(1)you have only created a different approach to that path.(2)You have also created a different type of shape after contact.(cb roll)
Your dvd should be on the way so maybe it will give me a better understanding.

Anthony

Yes, this is a simple concept that is extremely difficult to grasp unless {for a moment} you forget what you have learned about playing pool.

When I used to hustle people at pool I would often give up big handicaps. While playing a long session I would visibly communicate things to my opponent that I wasn't actually doing, like extending my follow through. After you hit the cue ball it doesn't matter what you do, so I would follow through funny, or jump up on my shots, or a variety of other things.

These were all designed to miss communicate and throw off my opponent. Those days are over, it's important for me to describe the simplicity of how to play well, it's not complicated. .

The gift of the TOI is in the simplicity of the system, and the powerful effects you will receive if you make a commitment for a few weeks. It's not up to me who does it and who doesn't, this is a personal choice, I'm only the messenger. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[naji]

It's about percentages, patterns and programming...

TOI means you look first at the shot and decide TOI center top or draw to get to the next shot where you can use TOI center, top or draw... IF you are programmed to see these patterns you no longer are looking at using outside so by limiting your approach you increase your percentages... IF you get out of line you may pivot from TOI into an outside english shot but it is for recovery and you are playing back into the TOI center, top or draw pattern not into another TOI pivot if you can help it...

As far as "anyone can make the easy ones regardless of which english"..... This is where you miss the mark... Anyone can make the easy shots but only a pro makes them almost 100% of the time... Most runs are ended by a position error or by missing a make-able shot.... I'd will hazard a guess that you don't shoot extensive drills to know your true percentages... Thinking you will be the same regardless of inside, center or outside while actually playing to a position is usually not reality...

No one says you have to play a certain way... But I am with CJ on reducing the number of variables being the better way...

Chris

Thanks Chris i like your reply it makes a lot of sense in regard to using TOI; i want to clear something before i dig in, when i say easy shots i mean the margin of error is large and aim, stroke, squirt, english stuff will still make the ball, sure at times we miss because we take it for granted and not do the proper routine.

Back to percentages, patterns and programming (PPP) , I agree 100% to the fact one has to look into the PPP always,

Truthfully the way you put it had me doubt myself about the common sense approach which is no side english, just nice long follow through shots with pure top or bottom, adjust speed as needed knowing the fact that cb can get spin due to collusion and know its rotation, and be programmed to see these patterns.

With TOI, I was locked in thinking english and aim only, but reading your reply, will certainly make me think, and for the time being, i'd say TOI might be a good thing. I am currently good at running good open racks of 9 and one pocket and 8 ball very comfortable using any english, at time i have issue with position, i will make TOI-ppp part of my game and see, you bet i will try, will be 1st one to give you my results.

CJ, English, Randy, and all sorry if i was not reading your posts correctly, but maybe i was in the mode tonight..Happy belated Easter all.

 

[naji]

It may seem so, but you've got it backwards.

WOW!!! who said pool is easy game, Mitchxo, you are right sorry, alwayse use inside to help OB spin into pocket no matter what, but is not really required i do agree with CJ here is full rotation details

Ok, we always need inside english on OB to help it go in pocket, bellow are rotation on OB

Case 1- Standing behind string line looking at spot, using pocket at right hand (using only OB-no CB)
you need inside english that puts CCW on OB

Case 2- Standing behind spot looking at string line, using pocket at left hand hand (using only OB-no CB)
you need inside english that puts CW on OB


For case 1, assume OB is about 6" from long right hand rail, following shot possibilities exist:

CB-1 - 100% straight with OB
CB-2 - cut angle such that CB go to rail closest to OB (OB throws into pocket with stun)
CB-3 - cut angle such that CB go away from rail closest to OB (OB throws away from pocket with stun)


For CB 1, if CB has no side spin, OB will have no side spin, if CB loaded with outside CW spin, that transfers CCW spin to OB and help go in pocket (obviously if it hits the back of pocket)- No cut shot, english only transfer- basic opposite rotation rule

For CB 2, with no english, just pure follow through shot, CB will spin OB CCW and help into pocket, collusion induced spin (CIS), no English Induced Spin (EIS), Note CB will have same as OB rotation after contacts due to CIS)

To put more CCW rotation on OB have to have CW rotation on CB, this is where i went wrong, to get CW here i have to put inside on CB WOW!
Now CB -3 is opposite to CB -2 with no english, just pure follow through shot, CB will spin OB CW and does not help pocketing, collusion induced spin (CIS), no English Induced Spin (EIS), Note CB will have same as OB rotation due to CIS)


To put CCW rotation on OB, CB must have CW rotation, to get CW here i have to put inside not outsideon CB!

In both CB-2 and CB-3 inside english at CB will cancel out or reduce the CIS amount, of which TOI is great for, i would call it Touch of Ingenuity


Similarly other conclusions can be reached for other pockets and shot directions.

The amount of spin on OB is determined by cut angle, speed, and amount of english used

And to add, if CB rolling enough, at time of contact (no stun or partial stun), there will be no english-spin induced throw, OB does not change direction.


Again sorry CJ, and who ever tried to correct me..It does make me think more about TOI, vs TOO.. what can i do it is me!!

I added text highlighted in red during editing
I corrected it, text in green are revised

 

[Mitchxout]

WOW!!! who said pool is easy game, We both are wrong or partially wrong, we did not declare direction of CB or which pockets..

Naji, in your post you said to use outside english when cutting a ball along the rail because the pocket plays smaller. This is backwards.

 

[Mitchxout]

OB near rails have very small pocket, it is favorable to spin them in using outside. With inside the pocket will spit them out.

Here ya go. BTW, this is for discussion purposes only, no ill intent intended.

 

[naji]

Naji, in your post you said to use outside english when cutting a ball along the rail because the pocket plays smaller. This is backwards.

In Case 2- Standing behind spot looking at string line, using pocket at left hand hand (using only OB-no CB)
you need inside english that puts CW on OB


For case 2, assume OB is about 6" from long left hand rail, following shot possibilities exist:

CB-1 - 100% straight with OB
CB-2 - cut angle such that CB go to rail closest to OB (OB throws into pocket with stun)
CB-3 - cut angle such that CB go away from rail closest to OB (OB throws away from pocket with stun)


For CB-2 above inside english NOT outside is good to spin the ball in, and inside english for CB-3

this is true for all angles and directions

 

[naji]

Here ya go. BTW, this is for discussion purposes only, no ill intent intended.

You and I had it wrong. See post 255, 256, and one before this.