Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

M

Masayoshi

Fusenshou no Masa
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
Thank you for posting these, especially the "sick" Russian Pyramid table. That one is so far off the pool-table charts, I wouldn't put too much weight on the TDF numbers.

This is what I got for your two tables, using the latest TDF document (... it looks like you might be using an old version):

Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)

Here's the latest updated list:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:pSF -- mouth-throat_difference:pAF -- shelf_depth:pLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/2":0.99 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.18 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.17 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143 deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141 deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.94 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Centurion)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
Click to expand...

The golf tables at Hard Times are probably up there with Russian pyramid tables in toughness, or even tougher. You should get somebody to measure them, although the rounded pockets might be difficult to measure.
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
mamics said:
Got mine delivered today finally.
My corner pockets angle measures 143 degrees.
Great little device indeed.

Dave - I think this changes my PAF from 1.04 to 1.07 which changes my overall TDF from 0.94 to 0.97 ?.
Click to expand...
I'm glad you like your angle-measuring device.

Thanks for the update.

Here's the latest:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:pSF -- mouth-throat_difference:pAF -- shelf_depth:pLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/2":0.99 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.18 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.17 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Centurion)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here's the latest with a new entry from RobMan (via PM):

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:pSF -- mouth-throat_difference:pAF -- shelf_depth:pLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/2":0.99 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.18 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.17 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Centurion)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan -- 9':1.0 -- 5": 0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1.5":0.97 -- 0.86 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here's the latest, after an addition from StraightPoolIU from the BU thread:


Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:pSF -- mouth-throat_difference:pAF -- shelf_depth:pLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/2":0.99 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.18 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.17 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown III)
StraightPoolIU -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown I)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Centurion)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan -- 9':1.0 -- 5": 0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1.5":0.97 -- 0.86 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Anybody have other tables to post? I'd still like to see the data on that really tough table from Hard Times in LA. Anybody have access to this or any other really "tough" table? If so, please share the measurements.

Here's the latest:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:pSF -- mouth-throat_difference:pAF -- shelf_depth:pLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/2":0.99 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.18 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.17 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown III)
StraightPoolIU -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown I)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Centurion)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan -- 9':1.0 -- 5": 0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1.5":0.97 -- 0.86 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
Anybody have other tables to post? I'd still like to see the data on that really tough table from Hard Times in LA. Anybody have access to this or any other really "tough" table? If so, please share the measurements.
Click to expand...
Is anybody out there in the Los Angeles area and reasonably close to "Hard Times" in Bellflower? If so, please take measurements on the tough money table and post them here so we can see how typical tables stack up against a really tough table.

Thanks,
Dave
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
Is anybody out there in the Los Angeles area and reasonably close to "Hard Times" in Bellflower? If so, please take measurements on the tough money table and post them here so we can see how typical tables stack up against a really tough table.
Click to expand...
I was still hoping somebody in the Los Angeles area could post info for the famous "money table" at Hard Times. Can somebody do this?

It would also be nice to have info for other tables in the country that have a reputation for playing really tough.

It will be interesting to see how they compare to common tables in the list below.

Here's the latest:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:pSF -- mouth-throat_difference:pAF -- shelf_depth:pLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/2":0.99 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.18 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.17 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown III)
StraightPoolIU -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown I)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Centurion)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan -- 9':1.0 -- 5": 0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1.5":0.97 -- 0.86 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
Sloppy Pockets

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dave, I was looking at a draft of the BCAPL table specs and I couldn't help but notice that all of the specific pocket measurements required pretty much summed up a Diamond Pro-Am, and no other factory-stock table I can think of. Pockets openings (4 1/2" corners, 5" sides +/- 1/16"), facing angles (141º corners, 101º sides +/- 1º), down angles (12-15º).

Even the method of measuring the corner pocket openings and the proper shelf depth (only 40% of the ball must show beyond the cushion when ball is at its deepest point in the pocket) is the same as Greg Sullivan recommends in his video on the subject. Makes me wonder if the new "standard" wasn't written with Diamond specs in mind.

In light of this, maybe the Diamond specs should be the ones to compare the others to, and given a default difficulty factor of 1.00.
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Sloppy Pockets said:
Dave, I was looking at a draft of the BCAPL table specs and I couldn't help but notice that all of the specific pocket measurements required pretty much summed up a Diamond Pro-Am, and no other factory-stock table I can think of. Pockets openings (4 1/2" corners, 5" sides +/- 1/16"), facing angles (141º corners, 101º sides +/- 1º), down angles (12-15º).

Even the method of measuring the corner pocket openings and the proper shelf depth (only 40% of the ball must show beyond the cushion when ball is at its deepest point in the pocket) is the same as Greg Sullivan recommends in his video on the subject. Makes me wonder if the new "standard" wasn't written with Diamond specs in mind.

In light of this, maybe the Diamond specs should be the ones to compare the others to, and given a default difficulty factor of 1.00.
Click to expand...
I decided to use the current world standards defined by the World Pool-Billiard Associate (WPA). I don't have anything against the BCAPL, but I personally think the WPA spec is a more-appropriate "standard" than a particular pool-league-system's specs.

Regardless, concerning the TDF numbers, the chosen "standard" doesn't really matter that much, as long as all tables are being compared to the same standard, and as long as the standard remains the same over time (regardless of what individual table manufacturers might decide to change).

Thanks for the info though.

Regards,
Dave
 
Last edited:
Roger Long

Roger Long

Sonoran Cue Creations
Silver Member
UOTE=Sloppy Pockets;4450964]Dave, I was looking at a draft of the BCAPL table specs and I couldn't help but notice that all of the specific pocket measurements required pretty much summed up a Diamond Pro-Am, and no other factory-stock table I can think of. Pockets openings (4 1/2" corners, 5" sides +/- 1/16"), facing angles (141º corners, 101º sides +/- 1º), down angles (12-15º).

Even the method of measuring the corner pocket openings and the proper shelf depth (only 40% of the ball must show beyond the cushion when ball is at its deepest point in the pocket) is the same as Greg Sullivan recommends in his video on the subject. Makes me wonder if the new "standard" wasn't written with Diamond specs in mind.

In light of this, maybe the Diamond specs should be the ones to compare the others to, and given a default difficulty factor of 1.00.[/QUOTE]

Sloppy Pockets:

The BCAPL is owned by Mark Griffin, who also has an ownership interest in Diamond Mfg., and that should explain why the BCAPL acknowledges only Diamond specs.

Roger
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bob Dixon said:
"Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/2":0.99 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.18 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)"

After re-measuring carefully I am correcting the above to:

table_size:TSF = 1.00 (4 1/2 x 9)

pocket_mouth_size:pSF = 1.175 (4", median of 3 7/8" and 4 1/8")

mouth-throat_difference:pAF = 1.14 (145 degrees at PSF of 1.175 is 1.14)

shelf_depth:pLF = 1.00 (1 5/8"; tightening the mouth brought the mouth 1/8" closer to the drop off; so that makes the shelf easier? That may be but in conjunction with the smaller mouth it doesn't seem easier.)

1.00 x 1.175 x 1.14 x 1.00 = TDF 1.3395

The TDF comes out pretty high, higher than "too tough". I'm not sure that it's almost 28% harder than a stock Diamond Pro-Am. Maybe.
http://billiarduniversity.org/documents/BU_table_difficulty_factor.pdf
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting the update along with your thoughts. That's a tough table! I wonder how it compares to the money table at Hard Times in LA. Hopefully, somebody will post measurements some day.

Here's the latest updated data for everybody who has posted to date:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:pSF -- mouth-throat_difference:pAF -- shelf_depth:pLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 145deg:1.14 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.17 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown III)
StraightPoolIU -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown I)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Centurion)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan -- 9':1.0 -- 5": 0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1.5":0.97 -- 0.86 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bob Dixon said:
I see that you changed the 'pocket_mouth_size:pSF' to 1.20 rather than the "median" 1.175 I adjusted it to. I wasn't sure how I should do that.
Click to expand...
I use the values in the tables exactly as listed, without any adjustments. That way everybody's results are the same (for the same measurements). Also, it's probably not meaningful looking past the first decimal place anyway (especially in the final result).

Bob Dixon said:
I'm interested in seeing what the TDF is on Table 1 at Hard Times/Bellflower. That's supposed to be the toughest table there. There must be someone posting here who can measure it.
Click to expand...
I also hope somebody will post the measurements. We must have many AZB users in the LA area.

Regards,
Dave
 
F

frigopie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My training table is a 9 feet Dynamic III, used in the Eurotour and European Championships, known as a hard table, but acording to the measures, it has a 0.88 TDF, so looks like it's easier than the average, although it's the most difficult table in my city... I find it a little strange
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
frigopie said:
My training table is a 9 feet Dynamic III, used in the Eurotour and European Championships, known as a hard table, but acording to the measures, it has a 0.88 TDF, so looks like it's easier than the average, although it's the most difficult table in my city... I find it a little strange
Click to expand...
Post your measurements and numbers so I can check your work and try to see why it isn't coming out tougher on the scale.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
F

frigopie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mouth size: 11.5cm
Throat size: 10.5cm (facing angle 138.7º)
Shelf depth: 3.5cm (measured just where the rounded bevel starts, but i would like to measure it again, I didn't have the appropiate tools to do it)

Ok, it's 1.0*0.95*0.98*0.98 = 0.91 , not 0.88, I though the shelf depth was 3cm
 
Last edited:
N

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
frigopie said:
Mouth size: 11.5cm
Throat size: 10.5cm (facing angle 138.7º)
Shelf depth: 3cm (measured just where the rounded bevel starts, but i would like to measure it again, I didn't have the appropiate tools to do it)
Click to expand...

Mouth- 4.53"
Throat- 4.13"
Shelf- 1.38"

There's your conversion to inches.
 
Last edited:
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
frigopie said:
Mouth size: 11.5cm
Throat size: 10.5cm (facing angle 138.7º)
Shelf depth: 3.5cm (measured just where the rounded bevel starts, but i would like to measure it again, I didn't have the appropriate tools to do it)

Ok, it's 1.0*0.95*0.98*0.98 = 0.91 , not 0.88, I though the shelf depth was 3cm
Click to expand...

Neil said:
Mouth- 4.53"
Throat- 4.13"
Shelf- 1.38"
Click to expand...

Thank you for posting the measurements. I've added your table to the list (see below). The 0.91 seems reasonable to me based on the measurements. Everything is a little easier than the standard WPA "standard" spec table.

Thanks again,
Dave

Here's the latest:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:pSF -- mouth-throat_difference:pAF -- shelf_depth:pLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 145deg:1.14 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.17 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
frigopie -- 9':1.00 -- 11.5cm:0.95 -- 138.7deg:0.98 -- 3.5cm:0.98 -- 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown III)
StraightPoolIU -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Gold Crown I)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (Brunswick Centurion)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan -- 9':1.0 -- 5": 0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1.5":0.97 -- 0.86 (Brunswick Gold Crown)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
jtaylor996 said:
I just measured the TDF for my legacy home 7' table. According to the page, it comes out at .70.

However, the pocket angle is 134 deg, and at that point it's harder than a narrower mouthed table, as anything that hits that facing gets bobbled out at anything other than snail speed.
Click to expand...
Are you sure you measured this properly, based on the pocket geometry illustration? That angle actually corresponds to very easy facings.

jtaylor996 said:
The pocket width at the shelf is 4.5", and except for some instances it plays like a tighter table (well put it like this, the only guarantee to pocket is to avoid the facing entirely, except 1-2 cases).
Click to expand...
Please post both the pocket mouth and pocket throat measurements based on the pocket geometry illustration. Then I can check your calculations and post your results in the summarizing table.

jtaylor996 said:
Did anyone ever come up with a pocket factor to account for this? Seems like I heard someone talking about this before...
Click to expand...
The pocket angle factor (PAF) and pocket shelf factor (PLF) should account for difficulty created by facing angle and shelf depth.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
J

jtaylor996

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dave,

I measured the angle directly in a few places on the table, to make sure things were consistent. I was going to double check with the throat measurements, but I didn't get a measurement 2" back from the front (that's not the back of these pockets due to the shallow angle)
lmb4tKa.jpg


It turns out I read the angle wrong, as the numbers were obscured. It's really showing 146 degrees, not 134. The PAF now goes from .94 to 1.09.

This is showing me that the PAF is accounting for the difficulty with bobbles. No problem there, now.

The measurements I got:
7' home table (legacy)
Points: 5.125"
Throat (at back of facing, very close to 2" back): 4"
Shelf: just over 1.5"
Facing angle: 146 degrees (direct measurement)
Facing down angle: 14 degrees

So this gives it:
TSF: 0.85
PSF: 0.88
PAF: 1.09
PLF: 1.00
TDF: 0.82

0.82 is way more in line with my expectations than the 0.72 that I came up with earlier.

I think what is not shown in these factors is how they affect the play of the game. With these angles, anything harder than a slow roll will bobble if you're not playing them like 4" pockets. This limits what you can do with english and position play somewhat. It's not that certain things are harder, certain things are just not going to happen on this table because of the pockets.
 
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