Table Leveling Standards

realkingcobra said:
When it comes to setting tables up for tournaments, Diamond supplies more tables from a manufacture than ANY other manufacture of pool tables in the world....so you're wrong on this one John.

Glen
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They may supply more tables in tournaments that are set up on temp sites but not tournaments that are played, so your wrong!
thread wasn't about that at all was it?
again


Glen, now that your done with my thread maybe some other guys can say what they feel. Glad you decided to drop your comments really because you tend to hamper what others say.

I didn't start this thread to start BS so guess what, your wrong again.

I have started the BMA Glen and mentioned it some time ago. Have been working on this for some time. Thought it would be nice to have guys in here share where they place the levels, the reason is that I thought they would all pretty much end up saying the same thing. Then they would see that they do, do things the same and there could be a std for where to place levels.

Once again you start talking about how to level, other points etc. Jay will tell you about my desire to improve things. Its not about me but somehow almost every thread I have you make it out like that it is.

Let me say this Glen about making decisions on what is right and wrong. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE LAST WORD!

Remember when I joined this forum, my first thread started problems didn't it. WHY? because certain guys in here think they know it all. Well they don't.

Really why the hell do you think I have 136 mil points

Some guys in here bring up their old threads all the time, the one Glen mentions earlier is one that I started.
 
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Club Billiards said:
Wow. I'm kind of upset that the internet connection at the Horseshoe wasn't working. I can't get on AZ for a day, and everyone is fired up all over this thread?! Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Example, Rob, you seem personally offended/pissed that everyone is not using index cards. I think you're taking that "method" a little too literal. The index cards are a tool to help you visualize what the levels read if you're not able to use Diamond's factory setup and have 30 levels set all around the table. And to quickly hit on that, the levels should go between any levelling points. On the Pro-Ams/Smart Tables, they should go right in between the levelling screws. Other tables, still between the levelling screws. You don't span seams, you don't put a level right on top of a screw hole. Put them where you can get the most accurate read and that might vary from table to table. Do you need 30 levels? No. Does it help to have more than 1? Absolutely.

Back to the cards, I think they are like using a road map every time you go home. The first couple times after you move in, yeah, it might be helpful. Once you start learning street names and remembering your route, you might not need the map. The cards are there to help visualize the table as a whole because it's hard to remember that point 1 is .005 out to the left and point 2 is .002 out to the right, etc. for all those levelling points. Once you understand how it's done, you get a better understanding of how level the table is as a whole and where you need to adjust next. If using the cards helps you to obtain the end result, by all means use them. If you've gone home enough times to remember how to get there, scrap the map.

Which brings me to the "standards" we've all been talking about... The "standards" are NOT how many levels we use, where we put them, wether or not we use cards, or any of that. Those are all Standard Operating Procedure (SOP). When we talk about standards, we're talking about measurable results, not methods. That's what we need to establish as a group, a union, an association, or whatever the case may be. To put it another way, if the tolerances of the slate manufacturing are within .005, then it seems that should be the standard. We should level our slate to within .005, and yes, regardless of the cloth. Ask Greg Sullivan this past weekend if .005 is level on the Accu-Stats table. By his standards, "level enough" isn't. Yeah, you may never see a ball roll off at .005, but if it's at .005 and you're leaning on the rail to shoot a long ball, is it still .005?

Yes, we need to get associations in place to establish these standards. Yes, we need to have certain SOP's in place. Is the RKC way the only way to get a table done? I can already feel the red reps coming, but nope. :D Has he spent years and years experimenting and thinking outside the box to improve the way we do things so that we can achieve a higher standard? Most definitely. Be free thinkers, guys, that's how we've gotten to the point we are now. Trade ideas, adapt methods, etc, but the end result is what we need to focus on.

End Rant. ;)
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im not upset at all that not everyone uses the cards....the avatar shows a table that had a twist in the middle slate and i used all the cards in the middle to show as a reference for some of ya.... i do use a few levels for leveling slates and a few cards when needed..
most slate levels go like a drive home and then we all run in to detours now and then.
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u guys have a good day
Rob.M
 
Define accuracy?

Just to clarify something, cause its been driving me a little nuts hearing everyone talk about getting a table within 0.002 or 0.010.

Starett levels are pretty accurate, graduations at 0.005" per foot (1 click).

This means a lot more error when you compound a distance of 3-12 ft. Also, this does not mean flat. There is "ZERO" chance of proving a slate flat with 0.002 with levels. My background was as a machinist, mostly tight tolerance prototype work. I understand very clearly what accuracy is about.

A few things to chew on;

*1 human hair is 0.002-0.004
*lapping (figure 8 motion with a lapping plate) is the only way to flatten something truly accurately.
*Neither zero nor infinity exist outside of theory; you can always add 1 to a number, and you can always divide a real number in half

As I was getting bored in the aerospace industry they were pushing something called geometric tolerancing which is basically taking a boundary layer over/under the "ideal" shape which represents the tolerance available in 3d form. This way you don't have compounded error. Imagine the head slate is 2 clicks high at the head of the table, then center slate is within 1 click, then the foot slate is 2 clicks low at the foot of the table. What is your total error?
Most people seem to think it is 2>!? When in geometric tolerancing it is 4-5 clicks out depending which way the center is leaning.

I need to find a picture from my playing table with the broken slate, after repair I lapped it with a 6x6 plate with 150 grit paper. Just took a skim across the table, but you could see the manufacturing error clear as day. Not enough to see more than a line deviation on the level, but there are distinct tracks. More than enough to affect ball travel and no way to take out with wedges or shims. This was from a good set of 3 year old GC4 slate with no twist or crown whatsoever.

Just my 2 cents

Rob
 
TableTek said:
Just to clarify something, cause its been driving me a little nuts hearing everyone talk about getting a table within 0.002 or 0.010.

Starett levels are pretty accurate, graduations at 0.005" per foot (1 click).

This means a lot more error when you compound a distance of 3-12 ft. Also, this does not mean flat. There is "ZERO" chance of proving a slate flat with 0.002 with levels. My background was as a machinist, mostly tight tolerance prototype work. I understand very clearly what accuracy is about.

A few things to chew on;

*1 human hair is 0.002-0.004
*lapping (figure 8 motion with a lapping plate) is the only way to flatten something truly accurately.
*Neither zero nor infinity exist outside of theory; you can always add 1 to a number, and you can always divide a real number in half

As I was getting bored in the aerospace industry they were pushing something called geometric tolerancing which is basically taking a boundary layer over/under the "ideal" shape which represents the tolerance available in 3d form. This way you don't have compounded error. Imagine the head slate is 2 clicks high at the head of the table, then center slate is within 1 click, then the foot slate is 2 clicks low at the foot of the table. What is your total error?
Most people seem to think it is 2>!? When in geometric tolerancing it is 4-5 clicks out depending which way the center is leaning.

I need to find a picture from my playing table with the broken slate, after repair I lapped it with a 6x6 plate with 150 grit paper. Just took a skim across the table, but you could see the manufacturing error clear as day. Not enough to see more than a line deviation on the level, but there are distinct tracks. More than enough to affect ball travel and no way to take out with wedges or shims. This was from a good set of 3 year old GC4 slate with no twist or crown whatsoever.

Just my 2 cents

Rob
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Very well said Rob! The issue OTLB brings up here, is if you can measure the slate from a point of contact with the frame (edges, center seam, and back bone) with a machinist level, you can then manipulate that level with shims, screw pressure even a bottle jack and a strap. Where do you place and measure with you levels to verify that you are actually improving
the overall flatness of the slate. As mechanics working in the field we are limited to the "averaged" milling accuracy provided to us by the manufacturer of the slate. The rigidity and strength of the frame also plays an important roll in the "flattening" of any warps in the surface of the slate.

My point is, that placement and reading of the levels between any two points on the slate that can be reasonably adjusted is appropriate. What are those locations? is the question at hand. Identifying milling irregularities
and surface defects (that would effect the roll of the ball) is important so you can know when you've done all that you can do with the materials provided.

A Valley bar table can't be leveled by the mechanic as accurately as a Diamond bar table with a leveling system, due to the lack of secured points of adjustment between the frame and the slate. Therefore the standard of level for a Diamond bar table will always be higher than for a Valley.

Jay
 
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Could u guys give me specs on a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? I'm wondering if ya can help me to figure Witch side of the bread to spread the jelly on..?
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re: Gold Crown Milling crests

Thanks for your input Jay! So far I have only lapped about a dozen tables, it is quite messy actually even just taking a skim off. Most of those were in a pool room scenario, one for a customer's antique that had pronounced ridges from delamination and my current practice table. On antiques over 80 years I typically notice raised lines that go with the grain of sedimentation. While on newer tables I tend to see a wave pattern going across the table side to side, but matching between slate and slate (usually). We are only talking a wave to crest of less than 0.010 but as in my prior post this can easily compound any error in level to an unacceptable roll. It would be a waste of time to lap a standard barbox (because of earring near pockets), however I would love to run a block on a Diamond! Hint Hint Glen! Any movement off of true level will make one side's crest lower while raising the opposites. I know I am a bit off topic, but this flatness question is important if consistency of leveling standards are to work. Just my two cents.
Rob
 
TableTek said:
Thanks for your input Jay! So far I have only lapped about a dozen tables, it is quite messy actually even just taking a skim off. Most of those were in a pool room scenario, one for a customer's antique that had pronounced ridges from delamination and my current practice table. On antiques over 80 years I typically notice raised lines that go with the grain of sedimentation. While on newer tables I tend to see a wave pattern going across the table side to side, but matching between slate and slate (usually). We are only talking a wave to crest of less than 0.010 but as in my prior post this can easily compound any error in level to an unacceptable roll. It would be a waste of time to lap a standard barbox (because of earring near pockets), however I would love to run a block on a Diamond! Hint Hint Glen! Any movement off of true level will make one side's crest lower while raising the opposites. I know I am a bit off topic, but this flatness question is important if consistency of leveling standards are to work. Just my two cents.
Rob
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You have way to much time and energy buddy!!!! :grin: Give me a call
 
dontlitethat said:
Could u guys give me specs on a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? I'm wondering if ya can help me to figure Witch side of the bread to spread the jelly on..?
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Click to expand...

Whole wheat, toasted, with Jiff chunky, Welches grape jelly, crust trimmed. I always put the jelly on the top side of the bread...It keeps the counters cleaner that way...:grin-square:
 
TableTek said:
Thanks for your input Jay! So far I have only lapped about a dozen tables, it is quite messy actually even just taking a skim off. Most of those were in a pool room scenario, one for a customer's antique that had pronounced ridges from delamination and my current practice table. On antiques over 80 years I typically notice raised lines that go with the grain of sedimentation. While on newer tables I tend to see a wave pattern going across the table side to side, but matching between slate and slate (usually). We are only talking a wave to crest of less than 0.010 but as in my prior post this can easily compound any error in level to an unacceptable roll. It would be a waste of time to lap a standard barbox (because of earring near pockets), however I would love to run a block on a Diamond! Hint Hint Glen! Any movement off of true level will make one side's crest lower while raising the opposites. I know I am a bit off topic, but this flatness question is important if consistency of leveling standards are to work. Just my two cents.
Rob
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When you are lapping the slate surface, are you working to flat or to level?
How do accommodate the seams? Are you bringing the highs down to the lowest point or are you filling the low spots to the high ones?

I've never had much luck re leveling bad slates, I could never get a consistent result in the field. I was always afraid of "owning" the job.
Just to stay on topic "where do you place your levels during this process"?

I would love to see you procedure when I'm down Philly way..:thumbup:

Jay
 
If possible, I would like to go. WE could bring some of my levels. Its nice to see others going out of the box.
 
off topic, then back on...

My shop is welcome to all, just give me a heads up so I can dust! heh yeh right. Anyways Jay, I get the table as level as possible first trying to figure out what is going on. You know from using the Starett's that when numbers don't move in a certain way that the slate is twisted, crowned or bowed. If it doesn't look too bad you can bond the seams, then take the block over the table in either a large circular on the preferred fig 8 motion. Any straight motion will hurt in lapping by making a low. You don't even need to dust the slate with something like in auto body work to see the high spots. They really stick out as the freshly sanded areas are much lighter. You will see the table like a topographical map after taking a skim. I prefer to use 120ish grit paper over a 12x18 granite plate, however the large surface area will still clog easily. I don't have that one anymore, I have been using a 90angle plate that is about 6x8 but ground flat backed with 120 (miss the granite!).

On the other hand, if the slate is very far out things do change a bit. Tension is a bad thing so you want to separate the slate and take care not to get the center of the plate off the slate (earring possible). A badly crowned slate is a ***** but you guys can deal with that once it is confirmed not to have many crests with the lapping. On gold crown slates you see that spot up from the corner pockets, about a foot towards the side pocket that tends to stick up for some reason. A light pass on that will show all.

If you want to find time to come down, we can pull apart my playing table and lap the whole thing! I only touched on the slate with the break to confirm flat after repair. Let me know, I definitely have questions for you two both!

Thanks
Rob

Oh yeh... my screwed up leveling system below... warning, probably not the best way so don't assume I am being cocky about this! Only been playing with these levels about 6 months now..

1) six 12" staretts centered in slate about 4" off long edge of table, 3 per side.

2) match seams, center slate error with outers, balance error with legs if needed, bring center up within 1-2 clicks

3) rotate levels 90 degrees, each level centered through middle of table, 2 per slate.

4) bump (technical, I know) edge of corners to see bubble movement, looking to find a light leg, adjust foot height if needed until equal movement all 4 corners.

5) looking for lows, matching up with lows from 2), bring lows up to plane

6) Rinse and repeat twice

7) Now use 2 levels on each long edge of individual slate, bring center up if needed, work down the table, checking level through middle of table at same time.

8) On older tables, check diagonal by corner pockets as well.

Not a very elegant method, 5-6 movements of levels off of 39-43 points typical. This works well for me, but looking to improve so let me know what you think.
 
very interesting, thank you for contributing to the thread

You have some unique approaches that I would like to see in person, can't wait
 
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Hi Jay,
I will gladly show you my "system", but if you find yourself scratching your head and laughing try to keep it to yourself! At least I have stopped using the tupperware waterline....
Rob
 
TableTek said:
Hi Jay,
I will gladly show you my "system", but if you find yourself scratching your head and laughing try to keep it to yourself! At least I have stopped using the tupperware waterline....
Rob
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Hey if it's good enough for the Egyptians, it's good enough for me. LOL
 
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